The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: The Random Show, Rare Drinking Edition — Affordable Luxuries, Brain Stimulation, Sampling the Future (and Some Previews), Recharging with Creative Experiments, Tokenizing Humans with a Bonding Curve, Poetry for People Who Hate Poetry, and Much More (#690)

Please enjoy this transcript of another episode of “The Random Show” with technologist, serial entrepreneur, world-class investor, self-experimenter, and all-around wild and crazy guy Kevin Rose (@KevinRose).

In this episode, we discuss affordable luxuries, creative offsites, brain stimulation, OCD, ADHD, tokenizing humans via a bonding curve, cold therapy on a budget, phone data strategies for international travelers, Toshiba’s low-carb rice cooker, and much, much more!

Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Musicor on your favorite podcast platform. You can listen to the conversation on YouTube here.

#690: The Random Show, Rare Drinking Edition — Affordable Luxuries, Brain Stimulation, Sampling the Future (and Some Previews), Recharging with Creative Experiments, Tokenizing Humans with a Bonding Curve, Poetry for People Who Hate Poetry, and Much More

DUE TO SOME HEADACHES IN THE PAST, PLEASE NOTE LEGAL CONDITIONS: Tim Ferriss owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity.

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Tim Ferriss: KevKev, nice to see you.

Kevin Rose: TimTim, pleasure.

Tim Ferriss: Ladies and gentlemen, as you may have surmised, every opportunity to use surmise I will take. This is another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, and it is also another episode of The Random Show with my first-ever podcast guest and my perpetual friend — 

Kevin Rose: Number one.

Tim Ferriss: Bestie numero uno, Kevin Rose.

Kevin Rose: Worst show ever. But we did it.

Tim Ferriss: You’ve got to start with a rough draft. You’ve got to start with a rough draft.

Kevin Rose: You had this list of questions. You asked me what my favorite cereal was or some shit like that. I was like, “Tim, you should not ask your guests that.”

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, you were like, “Oh, it’s one of those shows.” And then I was like, “Oh, my God. I thought this was going to be a layup with kid gloves, but Kevin’s busting my balls in episode one.” But it was good.

Kevin Rose: It was fun.

Tim Ferriss: It worked out.

Kevin Rose: We got a little hammed in that one, but it was fun.

Tim Ferriss: We got a little hammed. Speaking of ham, what do you have over there? We’re having a drink, sharing a virtual cheers.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, we’re having a drink. Yeah, cheers to you. Let this be known to the audience and to the world that this was the first time I didn’t want to drink and Tim pressured me into drinking. Normally, it’s the other way around.

Tim Ferriss: I pressure you. All right, just to replay the tape here. I said, “Do you have a drink?” And you’re like, “No.” And I was like, “But I have a drink.” You’re the one who’s always busting my balls about having a drink.

Kevin Rose: Right. It’s okay. It’s Friday.

Tim Ferriss: Right. Well, you said, “It’s 3:00 p.m.” And I said, “But it’s a Friday.” And you’re like, “You don’t really need to say Friday. You can just say drinks.” And then you walked off and got a drink. I wouldn’t say, I’m not sure if pressure, I mean, unless you’ve got — 

Kevin Rose: It wasn’t really twisting an arm, was it? It was more just like a slight change of wind direction. I was on my way to — 

Tim Ferriss: It was like a fingertip-to-the-lips kind of pressure.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, exactly. Shh. Say no more.

Tim Ferriss: Say no more. Sleep. Go get a beverage. So we have a lot to talk about. It seems like you’ve got a big list. I have a big list.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. What are you drinking, by the way?

Tim Ferriss: It’s always the case.

Kevin Rose: We didn’t talk about that one yet.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah, we didn’t even talk about it. Well, what do you have? You go first.

Kevin Rose: I have some shitty champagne.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Kevin Rose: Nothing worth mentioning.

Tim Ferriss: This is, I’m going to have to pronounce this because I don’t speak French, much like you might say, Versailles, Kentucky. There is a Versailles, Kentucky. This is French. I don’t speak French, but you’ve got this. It’s a Bandol, B-A-N-D-O-L, appellation Bandol Controleé 2021. Then there’s Domaine Tempier at the top, and this — 

Kevin Rose: Love that Domaine Tempier.

Tim Ferriss: — Domaine Tempier. It was recommended to me, actually bought for me by a friend. I’ll call him Jay, not to dox him, he’s not Jay-Z, but a good friend of mine and it’s fantastic. It’s really nice. I put some ice in it just to be a heathen and to harken back to the days of old when I was in Argentina where they drank a lot of wine with ice and I got into it. And cheers, Kevin. Nice to see you.

Kevin Rose: Cheers. Actually, I’ve been doing ice in my wine as well. Darya’s been giving me shit about it, my wife, and I said, “You know what? It’s hydrating at the same time, getting a little extra water in there.” That was my rationale. That said, I don’t know if you looked up the price of that bottle, but you might be doing it a severe disservice by adding cubes to it. I don’t know if it’s an inexpensive bottle because sometimes that can be a big faux pas.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I’m okay with it. 

Kevin Rose: It’s like a $400 bottle. Cubes of ice.

Tim Ferriss: My whole life is just a series of faux pas. What would that be? Faux pas. Faux pas. Well, okay, this is very unclear. It says price, $25.47 to $672. So, it’s somewhere in that range. I don’t know, it looks like $55. But I do think it may be somewhat challenging to get, but it’s not an over-the-top — 

Kevin Rose: At the end of the day, if you’re enjoying it with some ice. Godspeed, right?

Tim Ferriss: We could go on a whole line tangent.

Kevin Rose: Speaking of Godspeed.

Tim Ferriss: Let’s speak of Godspeed.

Kevin Rose: Can I start with my first thing to talk about?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, I can’t wait to see this segue. Yes, please.

Kevin Rose: Okay, so we’ve got a lot to talk about. One of the things that I would say we are known for at The Random Show is just random shit, and it’s just like, okay, we don’t see each other for three, four months. What have we stumbled into that’s stupid, that’s fun, that’s creative, that’s whatever? Fill in the blank. And it’s all kinds of stuff. One of the things that you’re quite good at, Tim, that I really enjoy as part of The Random Show that we do is you’re always talking about how can I get the most value and satisfaction out of something that is low-dollar value? Meaning, is that how you typically phrase it or?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, like affordable luxuries. 

Kevin Rose: Affordable luxuries.

Tim Ferriss: Something like that, right?

Kevin Rose: Right. So, that sounds right. So, there is the most, I would argue, outside of a standard Rolex Day-Date, the most popular watch in the world for watch nerds, I’d say probably recognizable watch, would be the Speedmaster, which is the watch that was worn to the Moon. And it’s an Omega Speedmaster, the original caliber that went to the moon, I think it was a 321. It gets really geeky. The very first Speedmaster that you can buy, the first very release, is now worth hundreds of thousands of dollars for a representation of Speedmaster. Modern day Speedmasters from Omega, you can still buy them, they are, I have to check the price, but let’s call it three and a half, $4,000, somewhere around there. Maybe a touch more. I haven’t looked in a while.

That said, they did a collaboration, Omega did with Swatch, and at first glance, you think like, “Swatch, there’s no way. Why would I want,” but the actual collaboration looks amazing. It looks just like the Speedmaster.

Tim Ferriss: Wow. It looks identical minus the band.

Kevin Rose: Identical. Exactly.

Tim Ferriss: It’s super, super similar.

Kevin Rose: It’s got the chronograph. It’s made out of the ceramic that is super-durable. They just crushed it and they made them in a whole variety of different colors. They put a different planet at the bottom of each one. So this one is Saturn right here, this brown version. They’re impossible to get and you have to buy them in the store. You can get them on eBay, but if you go into the stores, they actually have a limit to the supply they kind of dole out each day.

Tim Ferriss: What’s the price range or the cost?

Kevin Rose: $250 or $290, something like that.

Tim Ferriss: Definitely cheaper than $100,000 and cheaper than $5,000.

Kevin Rose: And you get the exact look of the Speedmaster and it’s such a fun watch.

Tim Ferriss: That’s cool. It’s really iconic. It’s a super-iconic watch.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. So, if you’re always been Speedmaster-curious or want to have one of the most iconic looks in terms of watches, no, I’m serious, but that’s why it went from Godspeed to here. You can see the jump.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I see it.

Kevin Rose: It’s just a cool watch and you got to see all the different colors, man.

Tim Ferriss: It is a great watch.

Kevin Rose: So, they call it the MoonSwatch instead of the Moonwatch.

Tim Ferriss: That’s clever.

Kevin Rose: So it’s the MoonSwatch from Speedmaster and Swatch collaboration. Yeah, just always trying to find something that is — holidays are not that far off. If you have a watch lover or someone in your life that you want to do a gift to, great gifts as well. So it’s kind of fun.

Tim Ferriss: For folks who may not know also, the Swatch Group is the world’s largest watch company. Employs about 36,000 people in 50 countries. They own a whole line — 

Kevin Rose: Huge.

Tim Ferriss: — of different brands, including Omega.

Kevin Rose: Yes. That’s why this happened.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, exactly. So, there you go.

Kevin Rose: You have to imagine the people at Omega were pissed. I just know so much about this industry.

Tim Ferriss: They might have been like, “We decline your suggestion.” And then the parent company was like, “No, this isn’t a suggestion. This is what we’re doing.”

Kevin Rose: Exactly. “This is actually happening.”

Tim Ferriss: And I will say that, and you know this, I don’t generally wear any kind of jewelry or watches or anything, very, very little adornment, but I was gifted as a very beautiful, thoughtful gift, a Speedmaster, by a friend of mine. And it feels good to wear this watch.

Kevin Rose: It does.

Tim Ferriss: And also if you want to, it’s kind of like guys who have really good mustache or beard game, they think the women are going to be into it, and then they just constantly get compliments from guys. That will also happen if you’re wearing one of these things.

Kevin Rose: Oh, 100 percent.

Tim Ferriss: And the fact that you can get though that Swatch for those people who are not watching the video, that collaboration, it looks just like the SpeedyPro. I mean, it really does.

Kevin Rose: One thing that is worth mentioning there on this watch, for those that want to know kind of the two-second geeky backstory is that Neil Armstrong not only wore this watch to the moon, but used the chronograph feature to time the propulsion and jet releases to land on the moon. So it’s like talk about he had to use a device. There wasn’t computers to do this.

Tim Ferriss: A mechanical device.

Kevin Rose: A mechanical device on his wrist. And so that’s why this watch is like legit. It’s a real true utilitarian awesome tool. So, it’s pretty awesome.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, you can imagine if there were some wrist-bound computer used for the first human landing on another planet and then that was made available in limited supply for civilians to buy, what that would hold in terms of meaning.  

Kevin Rose: Did you hear about the sealed first iPhone went for over $100,000 at auction?

Tim Ferriss: No, I did not hear.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. That was just a few years ago.

Tim Ferriss: That’s wild. That’s insane. Now, you mentioned one thing though. I’m curious about, you said it’s not, you can’t find it on eBay. How does a company pull that off?

Kevin Rose: No, sorry, you can find it on eBay.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, you can? All right.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, that is the place. You have to either go in-store like to an actual Swatch store, or on eBay. There’s only two places to find it.

Tim Ferriss: I got it. You can get it used or if you want it new, you have to go to the store.

Kevin Rose: Right. You can’t go to swatch.com and buy it directly from the site. They won’t ship it to you.

Tim Ferriss: What else you got?

Kevin Rose: I’ve got a lot.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, yeah, bring another one on and then I’ll choose an appropriate transition from one of them.

Kevin Rose: I’ll bring a quickie and then I’ve got some really hard-hitters after that. The quickie is that I’m relaunching my podcast.

Tim Ferriss: Love quickies. I just want you to keep saying it.

Kevin Rose: You love quickies. I’m relaunching my podcast. I’m actually doing it and getting back in the game.

Tim Ferriss: Which podcast are we talking about?

Kevin Rose: So I had The Kevin Rose Show from back in the day. I shut it down for maybe — it’s been about a year and a half, two years ago, and I’ve missed it. I’ve missed a lot of what I was doing there, but also I want to modify it in a few different ways.

Tim Ferriss: Now this is separate from — unless I’m already, I’ve had a third of a glass of wine, so maybe I’m just hallucinating already. But Foundation

Kevin Rose: The Foundation and Kevin Rose Show kind of merged into one. So it’s still one feed because Foundation was all about interviewing entrepreneurs, talking about their entrepreneurial journey, trials, tribulations, things of that nature. 

Tim Ferriss: Speaking about other planets, you did have Elon on at one point. This is back in the day.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, so that’s actually what I want to get back to where, when I think about some of the value that I was able to add to my listeners, it was around, and something that I think I’ve personally been good at is identifying trends early on and talking about them before anyone else.

Tim Ferriss: Just to underscore that. You are undeniably one of the best in the world I’ve ever seen at that.

Kevin Rose: I appreciate that, man. That means a lot coming from you, man.

Tim Ferriss: It’s true. It’s true. I’ve seen it over and over and over and over and over again. Yeah, it’s incredible.

Kevin Rose: It’s funny. Someone has a clip of me mentioning Ethereum for the first time on your show. Have you seen that? We did a Random Show.

Tim Ferriss: It was like 1985. I mean, yeah, it was way back in my apartment in San Francisco.

Kevin Rose: I’m like, “Let me tell you about this thing called Ethereum.” Totally. 

So, getting back to that, just really wanting to highlight and expose people to that early beta — beta, I think of early software. And so the tentative working title’s called Beta, but it’s going to be showing off things as early as possible that have potentially a lot of upside for the users. So, advancements in AI. When I had Elon on the show back in the day, Tesla stock was $1.90. I looked up the price of when he actually came on the show.

Tim Ferriss: Holy shit.

Kevin Rose: Which is crazy. 

So it’s going to be a variety show. It’s going to cover tech, investing, health. And then I think also important to throw in there is this kind of mental work-life balance that is so important to me these days where it’s, yes, investing is great, yes, making money is great, but it’s not going to bring you happiness unless you can figure out the shit in your head. So, just making sure that’s a component to it as well.

Anyway, don’t have anything to announce, but I would tell people, by the time this show comes out, if you just go to kevinrose.com, you’ll see a link to the podcast there.

Tim Ferriss: Have fun.

Kevin Rose: And I’m going to fire it back up.

Tim Ferriss: Do you have any teasers for likely or possible guests? Could be names, could be just profiles.

Kevin Rose: It’s a great question. I had sent Elon an email a while ago and he said he had a lot of fun on my first show and was game to do it again. That was a while ago, but I got to go and hit him back up. Would definitely want to have Elon back on. That’s going to be a good one. But I would say there’s three or four, but nobody is confirmed. I really want to kick it off with a good banger to begin. So, TBD.

Tim Ferriss: TBD. Well, let me tell you about something exciting on my side, which is really just a celebration at this point of enthusiasm for me. It’s not a launch or anything like that at this point, but you don’t know about this. Nobody knows about this really, which is I recently, last week, did a, I guess it was a four-day creative sprint in the middle of nowhere at this rustic retreat with two writers and three concept artists who are some of the best in the world, who have done some of the best-known work for D&D, for Magic: The Gathering, and we worked on CØCKPUNCH stuff, believe it or not.

Kevin Rose: Amazing.

Tim Ferriss: We actually spent that entire time coming up with scenarios, characters, adventures, concept sketches, artwork. I don’t want to spoil the surprise. We made some significant tweaks to the nature of that realm that I think are very, very, very compelling and got tons and tons of artwork, and it’s spectacular. Some of the work is just outrageously, outrageously good. What these guys can do in a handful of hours, it boggles my mind. It is just beyond my comprehension. It’s really as if, from the writing perspective, if someone sat down and in three hours, they just banged out 3,000 perfect words, I’d be like, “What? How’s that humanly possible?” I saw that with these artists. They were so well-oiled, so professional, and also had very different styles, which was super-fun. So, I could watch them also feeding off one another even though they were working on different aspects, different greater houses and so on.

For me, part of the celebration is realizing that even though it was my first go-around, my first rodeo, and I didn’t quite know what I was doing of course, it was an experiment in collaboration because I’ve been such a solo act. I’ve been such a soloist when it comes to large creative projects. Having an opportunity to work with, say, not just one 3D artist, which I did, Walter, for, say, the initial three-dimensional, 3D Blender character designs. But to work with an entire group and to see if I can actually interact or co-manage that process in some way was very reassuring.

I think I can do it. I think that even if I’m not putting pen to paper or stylus to a tablet in some fashion, I think the past that I have and the experience that I have with line art and more recently with painting and so on, really helps me to give better feedback to artists and to notice details. And I’m very excited about it.

Kevin Rose: I mean, there’s a few things I want to comment on here. One, it’s awesome to see, and it’s so apparent to me now that you launched this as an NFT project and NFTs are having a bad time right now.

Tim Ferriss: It’s definitely one way to put it.

Kevin Rose: It’s a bloody market out there. All the proceeds went to a nonprofit. Royalties are dead. So the idea that you’re making any further money on this via NFTs is not the case.

Tim Ferriss: Basically zero, yep.

Kevin Rose: And so you’re doing this for the love of the game, which I love to see, which is awesome.

And the second more important thing, having known you for a long, long time is I’ve never seen you — I’ve seen you struggle with giving up a little bit of creative control, like delegation. So I’ll give you some old Tim Ferriss stories. Every time Tim would write a new book, I’d be like, “Dude, Tim, let me get a little early copy. Let me get a little chapter. Let me see what you’re working on. What hacks are you doing?” Blah, blah, blah. You wouldn’t share that shit with anybody. You’re so secretive. You’d be like, “How do I encrypt my hard drive?” You would try and lock down all your shit, but to see you move into this world of more of creative director is awesome. Has that been a challenge for you? Am I articulating that correctly? 

Tim Ferriss: You are. Yeah, you’re definitely articulating correctly. I mean, I think as we were talking about before we started recording, we both have some maybe daddy trust issues or whatever that we’ve needed to work through on a lot of fronts and it’s definitely the case that that’s true.

I will say that there were a few decisions that were super-key in facilitating, lubricating, if you will, the possibility of me acting in a more creative director role. So, the first was, and it’s easy to miss the importance of this with the absurdity of the name of the project. CØCKPUNCH, The Legend of CØCKPUNCH. People should check out the trailer at the very least on the podcast.

Kevin Rose: Oh, my God. Episode one.

Tim Ferriss: It’s so good. Some amazing voice actors involved and the key there by using that name. And this was very deliberate and by pursuing it the way I pursued it and also giving the funds to the Saisei Foundation, my foundation, S-A-I-S-E-I Foundation.org for people who want to see the projects I’m involved with. What that did is it basically made fixating on money kind of silly in the sense that it doesn’t go to my pocket, it’s going to the Foundation, which is important, but it’s not going to directly improve the quality of my life in any way.

Secondly, the fact that it was given such an absurd/ hilarious title allowed me not to take it too seriously or be too precious or protective of it. And that is what opened the door to this collaboration. My hope is that by testing this with something like CØCKPUNCH, that I will then be able to translate it to things that I might be inclined to be more protective with.

There have been so many benefits to this, and I’ll name a few, or I’ll at least lead with one, which is the energy that this has generated has been unbelievable. It’s been like a power plant for everything else that I’m doing. So, it’s charging my batteries so effectively that I’ve been able to engage much more potently with everything else.

Kevin Rose: This is creative energy? This is from the creativity of it all?

Tim Ferriss: Creative energy, creative energy. For instance, I mean the sort of admin paper-cutty stuff that is so easy to succumb to, as a sort of death by a thousand paper cuts. Look, you need to do your taxes. There are things you need to do that you don’t really want to do, that deplete, at least in my case, kind of deplete my batteries. And if you don’t have something on the other side of the ledger to recharge those batteries, you can end up being really fatigued. You just don’t have extra calories to allocate to a lot of things.

This silly project, which has achieved a lot of serious things, I mean, millions of dollars have gone to the Foundation, or at least two million bucks, and there’s more that’s going to go because soon I’ll be donating all the secondary royalty revenue also to the Foundation. I mean, it’s done a lot of good in terms of supporting early-stage science at all sorts of top universities and journalism fellowships at UC Berkeley and so on.

But check this out. This’ll be another connection. And that is I literally, and we’ll see if I can keep this in or not. I need to talk to the other person.

Kevin Rose: That’s how you know it’s good.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. I just signed my first-ever writing collaboration agreement to work on my first book in six years with another person. I’ve never done that before in my life. And that’s my baby, right? I mean — 

Kevin Rose: Is this fiction? Is this going to be — 

Tim Ferriss: This is nonfiction.

Kevin Rose: Nonfiction.

Tim Ferriss: It’ll be sort of old-school Tim Ferriss in a sense, because it’ll be what I’m probably best at and most known for, but it will be done with someone.

Kevin Rose: Oh. You adding an hour to the week?

Tim Ferriss: Inflation, baby. Inflation hits us all. It’s not going to be The 5-Hour Workweek.

Kevin Rose: What’s funny is you can release that and people will be like, “Oh, shit, he figured out something new,” and it’d be like a bestseller.

Tim Ferriss: The first three or four hours are all about work, and the fifth hour is all about pleasure. Here we go, folks.

Kevin Rose: Exactly.

Tim Ferriss: Epicurean 2.0. So, I am beyond excited about this because this is now segueing from cutting my teeth on some collaboration with this thing called CØCKPUNCH. But now I’ve segued to my actual bailiwick, right down the middle with hardcore nonfiction, super-tactical nonfiction, and I’m going to work with someone else. And I don’t think there’s any chance I would have been able to do that had I not deliberately created something that I didn’t feel too protective or precious about. So, I’m fucking stoked, man. I’m really excited.

Kevin Rose: Let me ask you a question. How do you decide to, and as a general tip for the audience out there, how and when do you decide to outsource things to other people that you would consider to be representative of yourself or your brand or in some way could be potentially damaging? I think about, this has been a hard one for me because anytime an app ships or anytime anything happens that is associated with a company that I have started, if there’s something breaks or it’s not done the correct way, it’s always like, “Oh, Kevin, why didn’t you catch this?” Blah blah? And I’m like, “I did, there’s 15 other people…”

Tim Ferriss: That’s what other people say to you, or that’s what you say to you?

Kevin Rose: Both. They somehow think I’m doing everything. And so they’ll be like, “It’s impossible that you didn’t catch this.” And I’m like, “I didn’t see it before it went out.” And so I’m wondering, because your brand is so important to protect, who has final edit on your podcast? How did you trust them with that? Because —

Tim Ferriss: Totally. This is a great question.

Kevin Rose: Otherwise, you’d have to listen to every single podcast you ever did in great detail. And it’s like, yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, we’ve never talked about this. This is fun. All right, I’ve never talked about this publicly, so I am slow to give up the reins. I’m very slow, and I’m slow to trust in general, as you know. There’s some upside to that. There are also a bunch of downsides. But love it or hate it, that is where we are. I’m very hypervigilant in that way.

In the case of the podcast, first step after each podcast is recorded, before I even send my edit notes or anything like that, is the podcast is transcribed and there are some great tools out there that can interact with transcripts that we have also tested and used in the past, like Descript.

Kevin Rose: We use Descript too.

Tim Ferriss: Right. Which is really helpful. For people who don’t know, it allows you to, say, strip out all the ums and ahs and filler words automatically, and you make text edits that then get translated into audio edits. It’s very interesting. I also use professional sound editors and so on, but step one for all of that is getting the audio transcribed.

So we get the audio transcribed, and at this point I have something like 700 episodes, close to 700 episodes, which for those who are wondering is, it’s pretty crazy. Next April, I think it’s next April is going to be 10 years of the podcast. Can you fucking believe that? It’s crazy.

Kevin Rose: That’s insane.

Tim Ferriss: 10 years, 1.4 episodes on average per week, for 10 years straight. That’s insane.

Kevin Rose: Damn. Did you have hair when you started? I can’t even remember. I don’t think.

Tim Ferriss: I probably had a little more hair. My hair probably looked like my beard right now, so it wasn’t much.

Kevin Rose: I definitely didn’t have gray hair. I didn’t have gray hair back then.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I wasn’t going to be on any of those poster boards where they show you all the haircuts that are possible at the barber. It’s very old school. Go with the flat top, I want that one. I wouldn’t have been on any of those, but I probably had a little more hair. I was probably faking it. I think I was probably at the last, the 11th hour of my white-knuckling. I probably had some cheesy faux hawk, because that’s all that was left and I was trying to cover up bald spots. Something like that.

In any case, the point I was going to make is that my current general manager of the podcast, who’s really the COO of editorial, has been working for me for seven or eight years. We’ve been working together a long time.

Over that period of time, we’ve now done a few hundred episodes together, minimum, and I started with making edits myself in a Google Doc and then we would go back and forth. Over time, I got to the point where I would ask him to suggest edits and then I would go through and provide refinements and feedback. And I am at the point now where we probably have 95 percent overlap, which is good enough. And I therefore feel very comfortable with letting him make the vast majority of edit decisions related to the podcast.

Kevin Rose: That’s awesome. How long did that take you? Was that a year process?

Tim Ferriss: At least a year. Yeah, at least a year. Because you’re really training someone to do two things. One is to understand how you think well enough, my decision-making process, so that they can step into the shoes or into the mind of Tim Ferriss to look at a transcript. The second is to be the best version of their editorial selves for using judgment, and it’s the combination that works really well.

So I would say it took me, probably in his case, his responsibilities expanded dramatically as we worked together over time. But I would say since he has effectively run the operation side of the podcast, probably took a year and a half to two years is what I would say. And I think it can be done much more quickly for people who really focus on it and who don’t have the trust issues that I have. I think if you have a high enough volume of podcasts, which I have directly throttled. I used to do, say, at times, six, seven episodes a month because you have all of these other interview-based podcasts that are doing four or five a week, and I felt like that was a trend that I should — not a trend I should follow, but that was certainly in my economic best interest to publish more episodes and people were consuming them.

But I started to drag my feet and realized it was starting to feel like a J-O-B in the sense that I really was not looking forward to my conversations after the fourth or fifth or sixth of a month. So I dialed back deliberately so that I would still enjoy what I was doing. What that meant, though, is that you’re getting fewer iterations or you’re getting fewer at-bat practices with the person you’re trying to train to be a world-class editor. And I think you could do it, if you had decent volume, you could probably do it in three months.

Especially, for instance, one thing that I could have done, I just didn’t think of it and I didn’t have really the bandwidth. I’m just juggling a lot and it wasn’t my absolute top priority. You don’t have to use new audio. I could have said, “Let’s take the raw audio from 20 episodes that were published before,” or if you have a friend who’s a podcaster, you could have said, “Give me 20 of your episodes,” and then have him run through it. And then I would run through it, and boom, before you know it, if the person is reasonably adaptive and perceptive, they’ll figure it out. So I would say three to six months, but I’m at a point now where it’s at least 95 percent overlap. And if there’s something that’s very nuanced that I feel strongly about, I will still make that edit myself. And some of it is really, really, really, really nuanced.

Let’s just say a guest gives a long answer. In the middle of that answer, they say something that’s factually incorrect. And for my audience and also for the guest themselves, I want to remove that. But if I remove it, perhaps that removes a bunch of important context. So I may need to take something from elsewhere in the conversation and slot it in or create a hybrid sort of Frankenstein for it to make sense, or ask them to do a pickup, meaning record additional audio to slot in somewhere. That is at a level of complexity and also Tim Ferriss’ subjective whim that I will often step in to try to make some of those decisions. But my right hand makes a lot of the decisions on his own.

Kevin Rose: That’s amazing.

Tim Ferriss: And it’s incredible. So that’s been the process. And there is, I will say, to put out a really good finished episode, oftentimes there is a fuck-ton of work that happens behind the scenes, that if we do our jobs correctly, are completely invisible.

Kevin Rose: For me, it’s obviously a different can of worms in running a startup in a business, but I think of it kind of through this lens where one just a hundred percent, not even taking shortcuts when it comes to hiring. Just hiring absolute A+ players, or what you believe to be A+ players, from day one. I really, when I was working at Google and you walk in the door and you get to see who you’re surrounded by and who your peers are, it’s very apparent that that is, there’s a reason why their hiring process is so long, and so kind of a little bit tedious, but just it’s quite the complex — several hurdles that you have to get over before you actually get in the door. And I understand why those hurdles are so high now, because once you get in, they give you the keys to the castle and say, “Just go run, make mistakes, learn,” and they trust you a lot.

And so for me, once we have — I know I have high-quality talent to work with, it comes down to if this were to go completely sideways, how big of screw up would it be publicly into our community? And if the answer is a six or above, I probably want to give it a little bit more hands-on attention, and if the answer is an eight or above, then I want to be heavily involved in that process. If it’s a kind of five or below, who cares? Let them make the mistake, because you just don’t have time to look at everything.

Tim Ferriss: Not only that, but you don’t want your employees, and look, I think you’re better at this —

Kevin Rose: The micromanaging side.

Tim Ferriss: Exactly. Exactly. It’s like you don’t want them to feel like you’re the teacher looking over their shoulder to point out every mistake they make as they’re working, which has been hard for me to learn, honestly, because I am such a perfectionist. I don’t know if I told you this. Did I tell you that I was diagnosed with moderate/severe OCD by a psychiatrist? Did I tell you this?

Kevin Rose: No. Holy shit. That all makes sense now.

Tim Ferriss: What was funny is that I went through this long thing, and then the psychiatrist was like, “Okay, I feel like I have a very confident read on our current state of play and the diagnosis.” And so he tells me all this and he says, we’re on Zoom, and he’s like, “I understand this could be a lot to take in. If you need time, we can take a break. If you want to hop off the call and pick up tomorrow…” and I was like, “Are you fucking kidding me? I’m not surprised at all.”

Kevin Rose: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: I’m like, “Yeah, okay, fine. What’s next? That’s fine.”

Kevin Rose: Dude, it’s so funny you say that. I’ve got an awesome new therapist that I’m really enjoying. She’s amazing. And she’s like, “I want to refer you to someone because what you’re describing sounds like ADHD.” And I’m like, “Yeah, no shit.” Big surprise. Shocker. Shocker.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, shocker.

Kevin Rose: It literally happened a week ago. It’s amazing.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. I reached out to a couple of my ex-girlfriends who I’m friendly with, and I asked them, I was like, “Does this square with your experience?” And they’re like, “Yeah, yeah. It squares with my experience.” I was like, “Okay. Confirmed.” And this was in, just to provide the context, this was in the context of trying to determine neuroanatomical targets for something referred to as accelerated TMS, which I’m hoping to talk quite a bit more about, but I don’t feel comfortable yet making any type of recommendation. But it is a new protocol with a very, I shouldn’t say very old, but like 1980s-ish, forward developing technology, transcranial magnetic stimulation. So it’s brain stimulation for the purposes of minimizing or eliminating the symptoms of certain things like OCD, depression, generalized — or maybe it’s just general anxiety disorder. I think it’s generalized anxiety disorder. GAD.

And I become very interested in this because there are data related to something that’s been called the SAINT protocol, I think, that had too many religious overtones so they abbreviated to, I think maybe SNT. It’s a Stanford-based brain stimulation lab. There’s some incredible scientists involved, including Nolan Williams, who’s incredibly impressive to me, who have developed this protocol and the magnitude of effect that I have seen in some of the data, this does not apply to all people, it does not apply to all conditions, but shows a magnitude of effect that makes it equally as interesting to me as psychedelic-assisted therapies.

It’s the only thing I have come across in the last five years that approaches the amplitude of effect size that you see in some of these results. It’s bananas, but it’s very intense. By accelerated TMS. What that means is you are getting your brain zapped, and it’s not technically — I mean, whatever. We don’t have to get into zapping. It’s using magnetism, but you fucking feel it. Let me make it very clear. You are getting zapped for, and I could be getting some of the specifics wrong, but I’ve gone through one cycle of this already. You’re getting zapped for something like eight and a half to 10 minutes every hour, on the hour, for 10 hours a day, for five days straight. So you’re doing 50 sessions in five days, and it’s a hell of a thing.

But that is why I was undergoing a psychiatric evaluation, was to determine what the diagnosis was, such that they could try to determine which coordinates to use, basically, in placement of the stimulation. Super, super, super, super interesting. But the reason I brought that up is, winding all the way back to kind of where we started, I notice really — I notice really minute details, and that means also every mistake. I could scan document, I don’t know if you’re like this, but I can look at a document that four lawyers have reviewed and find stuff, and I just have that ability. I don’t know what it is. It’s definitely not all blessing. There’s a lot of curse to that. But it’s like I can scan a document, reading very quickly and be like, “This clause is off. That punctuation is off,” in minutes. 

Kevin Rose: Like a living ChatGPT.

Tim Ferriss: I’m kind of like, well, yeah, or a Rain Man in some respects. But that comes with a huge tax because it drives other people crazy and you drive yourself crazy. And so I’m learning to contend with that, which is a way of emphasizing how big a deal it is for me to collaborate in the way that I’m describing. I will say also that the objective for the creative offsite for me, was to try to create a flywheel of collaborative potential, and I’ll explain what that means.

In other words, I wanted to create enough imagery, enough artwork, also enough scaffolding in terms of world building, so the mythologies, the beliefs, the alliances, the conflicts, the geography, such that I could take all of that and give it as a world bible of sorts to a writer who’s never had any exposure to the realm of Varlata, right? The Legend of CØCKPUNCH, and they would be equipped to write a short story, or a module, or an adventure for D&D, a campaign, who knows, or a comic book, and have it align with my creative vision for that entire fantasy world, which was a cool challenge.

I think it requires a little more time. Those types of creative pushes are often two to three weeks. Three weeks seems to be the sweet spot. That’s a huge ask of my time and of everyone’s time, and I wanted to make sure that I felt comfortable in a shorter format first. 

But man, I’m excited, because what a lot of people don’t realize is this whole Legend of CØCKPUNCH thing, the only thing I need to do to make this something serious is change the name. I don’t need to change anything about the world.

Kevin Rose: Yes, I told you that. Yes.

Tim Ferriss: It’s actually really easy. I think if I wanted to switch that gear, which I think would be a terrible handicap right now, because I want to continue to collaborate, and by having the current branding, it alleviates a lot of pressure I might apply to it. There’s very little I have to do to flip a switch and make this a — 

Kevin Rose: Will you do that?

Tim Ferriss: Extremely viable — I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe.

Kevin Rose: I think you should.

Tim Ferriss: Remember when we had this conversation?

Kevin Rose: I called you up and I said, “If you do these three things, this shit’s going to take off.” And one of them was the name change.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, of course, of course. I know it’s a possibility. Right now, it is working so well as a creative hyperdrive and as a catalyst for just — it’s like having my own fusion reactor or something. It’s working so well that I’m like, “Look, don’t get too clever.” You can fuck things up by being too clever. I was like, “Don’t get too clever. This is working really well. You’ve lucked into a lot of it. Some of it’s by design, but you got really lucky. Ride the lightning for a while, don’t fuck it up.” So I’m going to stick with it for a while. I don’t feel also any time pressure whatsoever.

Kevin Rose: Can I ask you a question that I hope you’ll give me a more kind of vulnerable response to?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, boy.

Kevin Rose: So, no, this is a good one though, because from an outsider looking in, you say, “Okay, Tim, you’ve told us,” this is just my observations. You say over and over, “Legend of CØCKPUNCH. It’s a joke. It’s for fun. It’s a throwaway. I’m having a good time. Don’t want to take it too seriously, blah, blah, blah.” But in some sense, let me just think about how to word this. In some sense, if you did take it seriously, now you’re a, not a sci-fi, but you’re a fiction writer — 

Tim Ferriss: A fantasy writer.

Kevin Rose: Fantasy writer. And you could go for it. You could decide at some point to go for it and say, “I want to try this.” But there’s also a sense that it could fail, and you’re protected right now from failure because of the name. So is that just a safety mechanism to keep you from feeling failure, or — do you see what I’m saying? If we’re being really vulnerable here?

Tim Ferriss: I do. Yeah, it’s a great question. So here’s what I would say. It’s actually in a sense the opposite for me. So it’s not a throwaway, it’s definitely not a throwaway. It is something I think, very profound, at least for me personally, that is in the guise of something ridiculous. Which I think more people should try, honestly, because it’s actually a cheat code.

And I would say that instead of using it to avoid the possibility of failure, what it is enabling me to do is fucking swing for the fences in ways that I would never dare otherwise, that could result in just a complete face plant. So I’m actually risking many, many, many different types of failure that I would be hugely averse to otherwise, by couching it in the terms that I’ve been using, and I am going to do so much more of this in life. Holy shit, this has been such an unlock for me, that I’m going to do a lot more of it.

And I’ll mention a few other things just quickly because it ties into this. That’s the nature of The Random Show. Let me just pull out a random piece of paper from the hat and we’ll go from there. So there’s a great book, it’s actually excellent for storytelling in general, although it is comic specific. It was recommended to me by a very good artist and creative who works in comics named Daniel Henriques, The DC Comics Guide to Writing Comics, which is such a boring title for a really entertaining and useful book. But The DC Comics Guide to Writing Comics by Dennis O’Neil, it has sample scripts, it shows you side by side script plus final output. It goes into story arcs. Not all of it would apply to what I want to do, but it was — I found it incredibly useful and also hilarious. The writing itself is spectacular. I thought it was spectacular. By Dennis O’Neil. So I want to give a hats off to him.

And in terms of fiction, I would be very insecure if I were to take fiction writing, prose only on, in, say, novel or book form, because there are some people who are so, so good at it. For people out there who have not read any, say fantasy fiction, we could certainly get into science fiction. I’m a huge fan of science fiction. Ted Chiang. I’ll just say that. C-H-I-A-N-G. The collection’s just short stories if you want something — 

Kevin Rose: Oh, it’s got like eight short stories or something like that in one book?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Rose: That was really good. You said that a couple of years ago, you recommended that. I read it. Fantastic.

Tim Ferriss: I mean, he’s absurdly, absurdly good. The movie Arrival — 

Kevin Rose: So good.

Tim Ferriss: Was based on one of his short stories. I mean, the guy is so, so fantastic.

Kevin Rose: To be able to pack that much information, like that dense of storytelling, in such a short little — it brings you in so quickly. It’s unbelievable.

Tim Ferriss: His ability to turn your brain inside out with new concepts in a short story is — 

Kevin Rose: In 15 pages.

Tim Ferriss: Unbelievable. It’s unbelievable. So Ted Chiang for science fiction would be my starting point. And then you can try the longer stuff. But for fantasy, if people — Lord of the Rings is just too much for people to chew on, generally. The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. I think Darya has read that actually, because I recommended it — 

Kevin Rose: She’s read almost all sci-fi.

Tim Ferriss: She read The Graveyard Book, which was usually my — The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman is usually my, what would you call it? My trainer for people who are non-fiction purists who are like, “Fiction is dumb. I don’t want to read fiction.” I’ll usually break them in with The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman. Usually audiobook, because these people are like, “I’m fucking busy.” I’m like, “Okay, fine. Well, listen while you’re walking the dog or doing the dishes or whatever.”

The Graveyard Book, read by Neil Gaiman — the ensemble is great, but don’t do the ensemble cast — read by Neil Gaiman. And then the other one is The Name of The Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, which is fucking incredible. And I recommended it to a friend. I hadn’t read it in 10 years or something. And my friend, who is a fucking snob when it comes to writing, he has very high standards, he reads excellent books. And he ripped through the two books that are part of this series, The Kingkiller Chronicle, in like four days. These are long books. And it completely blew his mind, which got me very excited to read more fiction. But I didn’t have a good lead until these concept artists, at least I think one of the concept artists and one of the writers at least, it was like three out of five or something, said, “You have to read The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie.” And I’m in the middle of listening to The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie, and it is really fun. It is really, really, really good. I’ve really been enjoying it.

So on the creative side, I’m soaking myself in masters of fiction, but I don’t have the balls yet, or let me put it a different way. It’s not a balls issue. I don’t have the hubris to want to take that on right now. I realize I have a lot of skill development to focus on, and I think that my sweet spot will actually be potentially comics. I really think comics might be my sweet spot.

Kevin Rose: That would be awesome.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, because I have the visual sensibility. I mean, I do have the directorial visual capacity. I can think about all of that very easily. So I could see you really, really enjoying that. And I want to recommend one other thing, which is there’s a very short, it’s not really a TED Talk, but it’s on TED. There’s a nine-minute monologue. And what’s genius about it is that he’s such a good actor that he makes it seem impromptu, but you know he rehearsed the shit out of it. It takes a lot of practice to make something seem like it’s impromptu. And it’s Ethan Hawk, the actor, and it is a short TED Talk. It’s like nine minutes long called “Give Yourself Permission to Be Creative.” And holy shit, it is so good and so powerful. I really, really recommend everybody check it out.

Kevin Rose: I’m writing it down right now.

Tim Ferriss: It’s such an easy lift.

Kevin Rose: Amazing.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Speaking of TED Talks, thank you for coming to my TED Talk. Kevin, you’re up.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, so one thing I wanted to — we talked about that brain stimulation stuff, and Adam Gazzaley, our mutual friend at UCSF, has been experimenting with some of that stuff as well.

Tim Ferriss: For a long time. For a long time. He’s one of the pros.

Kevin Rose: Long time. One thing that I will say, our mutual friend, Matt Walker, who runs the Berkeley Sleep Lab, have you talked to Matt about brain stimulation at all?

Tim Ferriss: No. You know, God, what a fucking — I’m really on my Long Island self right now. My F-bombs are at a high density for this episode. I literally took a note like 10 minutes ago to catch up with Matt Walker, because I haven’t caught up with him in a while. So yes, I’ve been thinking about that.

Kevin Rose: Probably one of the nicest nicest humans on Earth.

Tim Ferriss: Such a sweet guy, but I haven’t talked to him about brain stim. I have not.

Kevin Rose: Matt is, and this is by no means an ad, I’m not involved at all, he’s a scientific advisor for a company called Somnee, S-O-M-N-E-E. He sent me one of the devices. I haven’t tried it yet, but I have it sitting next to my bed, oddly enough, as one does. But you wear it 15 minutes before you go to sleep, and it’s supposed to just really improve your sleep quality through, via brain stimulation. So definitely check that out. And I know that obviously he wouldn’t sign on to something unless he believed the science was solid, and he was very excited about this. It’s a tough hurdle as a startup to get people to feel comfortable stimulating their brain with currents. It’s challenging, but it’s really promising. And Matt was impressed with the result.

Tim Ferriss: That’s amazing.

Kevin Rose: So if you have trouble with sleep, definitely check it out. And Matt’s obviously a legend.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, my God. Story of my life. Good lord. Yeah. So I will talk to Matt. He is genuinely such a brilliant, but moreover, sweet guy. He’s just one of the sweetest guys I’ve ever met.

Kevin Rose: Oh, he’s nice. I kind of want to write him into my will and have him watch my kids if I die.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, seriously. “I know I met you a year ago, but can you be the godfather to my unborn children, please?”

Kevin Rose: “You’ve never met them, but…”

Tim Ferriss: Exactly. He is the sweetest guy. Such a sweet guy. All right, so I know you have a bunch of stuff. What else are you holding back here?

Kevin Rose: Speaking of just crazy shit early that I want to tell you about, I think about, well, technology startups in general, we all know 90 percent of them fail. Some of them are so odd they’re worth mentioning because if they become something larger, you’ll want to have heard about it. This is one of those. So there is a site out there, it is called friend.tech. Have you heard of this?

Tim Ferriss: No.

Kevin Rose: Okay.

Tim Ferriss: I don’t think so.

Kevin Rose: So you get a signup code, they’re posting them all over Twitter, somebody you’ll know will have one. And when you go in, what they have realized, and what Apple has done, is Apple has said, “You must pay us a 20 percent tax on all transactions.” And they’ve also banned cryptocurrency trading from the App Store. They don’t allow that to happen. They like to have wallets and they allow you to buy from Coinbase, but as payments, they haven’t yet enabled that. So some clever individuals have figured out that they, back in the day, they have a way with Safari, the little browser built into the iPhone, to install apps on the phone that aren’t actually from the App Store.

Tim Ferriss: That’s wild. Okay. I see where this is going.

Kevin Rose: Okay. So what they’ve done is, somebody created something called friend.tech. And when you sign in with your Twitter and off with your Twitter, it creates a profile for you. It gives you a place to post to your followers. You can post out and they can all respond back, but they can’t see each other’s responses. So it’s almost like a private DM that is coming from them to you. But whenever you send something out, it goes to everyone. Now, what happens though, is you get one share of yourself to begin with, and they call them keys now because they realize the SEC might freak out about that. And they’re tokenizing humans via a bonding curve.

Tim Ferriss: What? What does that mean?

Kevin Rose: That means, think of bonding curves like a slippery slide, like a child’s slide. And if you had to place a toy car on the bottom of the slide, if you’re early and you’re the first one, you’re buying in at the ground floor, but as the car starts to go up the slide, which is the predefined curvature of the bonding curve, it becomes more and more pricey. So if I buy Tim Ferriss as user number one, I might pay 10 cents a share for Tim Feriss, and the next person might pay 15 cents, the next person might pay 20, and then it goes up from there. It’s all done in Ethereum, but they do it on a layer two, which is another complex way of saying they kind of take it off chain, or not on the main chain, so that it only costs pennies to do these transactions. 

Tim Ferriss: So you’re dodging Apple and you’re dodging the gas fees.

Kevin Rose: Right. So think of this, imagine this as a new type of OnlyFans, but for everyday content. So if Twitter can have subscriptions, OnlyFans can have fetishes about whatever. I don’t even want to name any because I’ve seen some weird shit, I’ve heard about some weird shit.

Tim Ferriss: Nice save, nice save.

Kevin Rose: Thank you, thank you. So this allows them to dodge the micropayments, and it is more or less — and so I signed up, I was like, “What the hell? I’m just going to try this.” But here’s the crazy thing, Tim, as people buy and sell you, a percentage that goes back to you as the creator, the content creator. So I didn’t know that going into this. I’m like, “Oh, I’m just going to buy and sell some of my friends.” And so I haven’t sold anybody yet. I just bought.

Tim Ferriss: Wait, hold on. When you’re saying buy and sell some of your friends, or you’re selling — not shares, because SEC will freak out, but whatever the hell — 

Kevin Rose: They call them keys.

Tim Ferriss: Keys. Keys in yourself, what do people get? Okay, so they pay for this thing?

Kevin Rose: Access to your feed. They get access to your feed.

Tim Ferriss: All right.

Kevin Rose: So if you signed up — 

Tim Ferriss: So it’s like an Ethereum-denominated Patreon in a way. Something like that?

Kevin Rose: Yes, exactly. But it’s based on a bonding curve, so the sooner you get in the better. And then there’s, as you exit down, it follows the same curve down. So as you sell shares, so Nadya from Pussy Riot, I paid for hers, and she posts some things on her feed.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, that’s very nice.

Kevin Rose: Nadya’s a beautiful woman. There’s no doubt about that.

Tim Ferriss: Kevin just showed his iPhone screen to the video for those who want to check out the video. The video version.

Kevin Rose: Hey, listen, Darya likes her. She told Darya that she has a nice ass. So my wife is okay with her.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, wow.

Kevin Rose: I don’t even know if I should be bringing this up right now. I’ve had two glasses of wine.

Tim Ferriss: Female politics are so next level.

Kevin Rose: So next level.

Tim Ferriss: Dudes are just playing checkers and women are playing 3D chess, it’s so much more complicated.

Kevin Rose: I know. She goes to Darya like, “Oh, you have a really nice ass.” And Darya’s like, “Thank you.” And then later Darya’s like, “Oh, she said I have a really nice ass.” I’m like, what do I say? “Oh, you both have nice asses.” What am I supposed to say? There’s nothing you can say to win.

Tim Ferriss: You’re like, “I like food, I like ass. I would like some scrambled eggs.” 

Kevin Rose: Now there’s nothing you can say. You’re going to go back to your own program.

So anyway, she’s a fun one to follow. But here’s the funny thing is people are buying or selling me, and I wasn’t aware of this, you get a cut of it. So dude, I’ve got almost three ETH in just royalties from people buying and selling me on this.

Tim Ferriss: So here’s what I’m guessing. The people who are at the bottom of the slide are marking up and then selling their shares, their keys.

Kevin Rose: Potentially.

Tim Ferriss: And Kevin, so let me ask you this. Are you ending up with the same scumbags that are so common in Web3 land, or is it something you don’t have to deal with?

Kevin Rose: Scumbags? I call them friends, but I would say that I don’t — 

Tim Ferriss: I’m not saying everybody in those communities fits the description of scumbags, but there are a lot of fucking idiots, let’s be honest.

Kevin Rose: I don’t think you can block anyone here, but so far everyone has been super nice. I only have 38 holders.

Tim Ferriss: Well, also because if it’s a DM, they don’t get any social reinforcement for being pricks, right?

Kevin Rose: Right.

Tim Ferriss: That just removes — 

Kevin Rose: Yes, exactly. But my point really is not so much about whether this is, I think the SEC comes in here at some point if this gets too big and it’s like, this probably isn’t right, but there’s something interesting about this idea of owning a portion of — it’s like when we were kids and you said, “Hey, this band’s going to be huge.” And you listen to a band — 

Tim Ferriss: You get rewarded for being early.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, exactly. And you were like, “No, trust me. Trust me, they’re going to break out. This song is just the beginning.” And then they become the next Pearl Jam or whatever, and you’re like, “I told you, man. I was early. I was a fan since day one.” This is a way to say I was a fan since day one and get rewarded for it at the same time. So it’s a fascinating social experiment. I don’t know where it’s going to go, but I think it’s worth people just kicking the tires on it.

Tim Ferriss: And so the way you get rewarded, then if you’re buying keys, God, that’s awkward. That term is used for so many things, but whatever, keys in someone. So I buy keys in Kevin Rose. The way I get rewarded is number one, access to the feed.

Kevin Rose: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Although I don’t think your ass shots are going to be as good as the one that you just showed me.

Kevin Rose: No, but I have pictures of you that I haven’t exposed yet that I might post tomorrow.

Tim Ferriss: All right, perfect. Can’t wait. And then secondly, the way you get rewarded is you can, I guess, sell some or all of your keys if you got in early. 

Kevin Rose: You get one share of your own self. You can buy more shares of your own self if you’re bullish on yourself. But I would not recommend going and selling yourself. That just looks odd. For me, I’ve just gone out and bought a handful of other people that I respect or want to see their content. And I haven’t sold anybody because I think this is like a house of cards a little bit, but — 

Tim Ferriss: Dude, what happened to your knuckles? What is going on?

Kevin Rose: I was building a kid’s construction set, my kids’ house, and fucked it up, my middle knuckle.

Tim Ferriss: It looks like you’ve been punching cement blocks.

Kevin Rose: I know. I do want to take some boxing classes, though. That’s on my list of to-dos.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, you should. Just don’t get hit in the head.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, I know that.

Tim Ferriss: TBI does not help what you want to do. You could do — I mean, boxing’s great. You’ll feel like you’re about to die after three minutes of working on pads. It is so unbelievably tiring, especially if you have a trainer who moves a lot and can avoid what you’re trying to accomplish. Muay Thai, also excellent for pad work. I’ve been thinking about getting back into Muay Thai, but I have to fix my spinal pain first. And I mean, Muay Thai is probably one of the worst things that I could possibly do right now, given the state of affairs. But boxing’s great, man. And you’ll have access to a lot of good gyms.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, there’s got to be some out here. I’m going to go try and find a good one.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah. Ton, ton. You’ve got tons of options. Just skip the sparring. Skip the sparring and work on pads.

Kevin Rose: Well, you could do light sparring, though, with padded headgear, as long as it’s not too — 

Tim Ferriss: Let me explain what happens in light sparring with headgear. So here’s what happens with light sparring with headgear. Everyone’s cool for like 60 seconds —

Kevin Rose: Till you’re not?

Tim Ferriss: — And then someone throws a punch that’s a little too hard and they say, “Oh, sorry, man, sorry.” And the other person’s like, “Yeah, that’s fine. No problem.” And then the other person throws a shot, it’s a little harder. And then before you know it, you’re just fucking giving each other brain damage left and right. And then you both have a headache for three days. And you actually have real jobs, and it’s complete waste of brain cells. So the way that sparring, it’s not really sparring, but the way that contact can make sense is if you have someone who’s really good at holding mitts, pads, who will occasionally check you with their own hands, but they have the pads on. So they’re not hitting you hard, but they’re giving you the feedback — 

Kevin Rose: Just a little snap to the face.

Tim Ferriss: So you have to react and you have to develop some defensive capabilities. I think that’s tolerable. But speaking as someone, oh, my God, going through these psychiatric evaluations, the number of questions related to concussions and traumatic brain injury is really beyond anything I would’ve expected. Like the correlation of depression, anxiety, et cetera, to TBI, to traumatic brain injury is undeniable.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, it turns out fucking up your brain is going to fuck up your brain, as it comes.

Tim Ferriss: Well, yeah, but it’s not immediately clear if you’re, say, a skateboarder when you’re a kid. I skateboarded. You did too. I’m sure you ate shit sometimes, like you whacked the living hell out of your head.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, I was actually talking to Tony Hawk about this because his mom passed from dementia. And we were talking about some of the brain injuries and stuff that he’s been through. At the time, this was years ago, so I’m kind of paraphrasing, but at the time he was just like, “It’s what I do.” He’s like, “You’re kind of too far in at that point.” And I talked to Rhonda Patrick and I was like, this is many years ago, we were talking about omega-3s to get for Tony and just stuff that we could potentially do to give him some brain health. It’s tough. He’s seen some damage. Have you ever seen his chins?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, they must be terrible. I haven’t.

Kevin Rose: They’re beat up, dude.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, he’s like a Muay Thai fighter.

Kevin Rose: Dude, I have so much respect for that dude. I mean, talk about somebody that, the last time I saw him was probably six months ago and we went to this donut place that was opening up. And he had a cane with him.

Tim Ferriss: What? A cane?

Kevin Rose: Yeah. Well, he had just had surgery.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, I see.

Kevin Rose: And I’m like, “How are you doing, man?” He is like, “Ah, you know. “They just opened me up, put a few more screws in.” He’s like, “I’ll be skating.” It is like, the dude just has no fear. He’s just like, “Ah, they just opened me up, put a few screws in and I’m going to go back at it.” What the fuck, dude?

Tim Ferriss: Good for him.

Kevin Rose: You’re already the G.O.A.T. You know what I mean?

Tim Ferriss: I mean, Laird Hamilton, same with surfing, right? He’s just like, “Yeah, get patched up. I’m back out there.”

Kevin Rose: That’s just insane.

Tim Ferriss: Like, “Broke my leg on a hundred-foot wave in 17 places. Yeah, it’s fine. They’ll just stitch it back together. I’ll be out in two months.”

Kevin Rose: It’s just insane, dude. I’m not built like that. It’s impressive.

Tim Ferriss: Side note, and this is not to make a blanket recommendation because that would be really irresponsible. But I saw a presentation, I’m not sure if it’s publicly available, on a scientific study that examined psilocybin, what is considered the active component — 

Kevin Rose: Everybody knows what that is!

Tim Ferriss: Some do. Some do. In psilocybe mushrooms or different types of mushrooms, so magic mushrooms, in Parkinson’s patients for the minimizing or reversal of symptoms. And it’s very compelling. So I do think that psychedelics, it’s unclear exactly what type, to me at least, maybe they are the tryptamine psychedelics. Who knows? Maybe it has something to do with the serotonin type 2A receptors. I’m not sure. That’s beyond my pay grade. But I will say that, for those who are interested, if they can find this research, which could be very preliminary, who knows? Maybe it’s kind of pilot study type of status. But looking at psilocybin as applied to Parkinson’s patients. I do think, from a neurogenesis perspective, I find it one of the more promising avenues of exploration. For people with TBI, I do think psychedelic-assisted therapies are very interesting. I would say psilocybin is probably one of the better-researched molecules and worth investigating. Ibogaine, also very interesting. But it has cardiac implications.

Kevin Rose: It stops your heart.

Tim Ferriss: There are cardiac implications. Nolan Williams, I mentioned earlier, has looked at ways to mitigate some of the cardiac risk. Both of those are very, very, very interesting. Psilocybin, at this point, probably being the more versatile of the two just from a safety profile perspective. But I’m very optimistic. For those people who want to look at the edges of scientific inquiry, I’m very optimistic actually, in a way that I wasn’t, say, 10 years ago in how we might contend with neurocognitive decline or neurodegenerative disease. I’m actually much more optimistic than I was 10 years ago.

Kevin Rose: Did you happen to invest in Paul Stamets’ new company?

Tim Ferriss: I did not. I’m not doing a whole lot of investing and I haven’t.

Kevin Rose: We did at True Ventures.

Tim Ferriss: You did? Good.

Kevin Rose: He’s got a psilocybin new company that they’re doing studies. And hopefully, when this stuff gets legalized, we’ll see what happens.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, Paul Stamets knows this stuff, man. Paul Stamets, he’s one of a kind. He’s a great human being in my experience, all my experiences with him. We actually, just last week, maybe in the last two weeks, he and I did a challenge grant to raise money for the Amazon conservation team to buy a historically indigenous land to return it to certain tribes in Colombia, including the Kogi and a handful of others. They’re not in the Amazon, they’re at higher altitude in the north, and a handful of others. And then ACT equips them with training to be able to sort of monitor and report on their territory, because it’s not really enough just to secure land rights. And Paul was generous enough, along with my foundation, to issue the challenge grant. So we just did that together in the last two weeks. Paul knows his stuff. He really, really knows his stuff. I feel very confident in saying that. Smart guy.

Kevin Rose: He’s got some great TED talks as well, worth checking out. All right, should we move on?

Tim Ferriss: Let’s move on. So I’ll mention something that’s sitting outside, I can see it from here, that people might be interested in. So I’ve been and still am a fervent believer in cold therapy. So using ice baths as a means of controlling inflammation, as a means of mood elevation that lasts — 

Kevin Rose: Yeah, mood elevation, big time.

Tim Ferriss: It’s unbelievable. And generally, my approach has been to get a chest freezer of some type and fill it with ice, et cetera. And that works, but they get really disgusting really quickly.

Kevin Rose: They all do, dude. I bought one of the machines, the real pro ones.

Tim Ferriss: Yes. And then you’re stuck with this thing that is an eyesore and you don’t know what to do with it.

Kevin Rose: You can’t move it. I tried to sell it. I couldn’t.

Tim Ferriss: So I ended up, because I realized how significant a lever this is for improving my quality of life just on a daily basis — and I’ll backstep for a second and just say one thing that I learned from Tony Robbins, to give him credit, and I don’t know if he came up with this, but is the sequence of state, story, strategy. So it’s like, fix your state first. Only then can you come up with an enabling story, and only then can you come up with an effective strategy. Because if you’re feeling shitty and you’re sleep-deprived and you’re kind of depressed or anxious or whatever, you try to come up with a strategy, meaning, how to fix something, you’re not going to come up with a good strategy, generally speaking. So it’s like, fix your physical state first, then you can come up with an enabling story, then come up with an effective strategy.

So the state piece is very important. There aren’t that many ways I have found to change state. Exercise is one, but it requires generally a fair amount of time. Heat is also effective, but again, generally requires, say, it doesn’t sound like much, but it’s like 15 to 30 minutes, let’s just say, in a sauna. It’s very effective. Cold is the fastest. It’s just the fastest for me. And I’ve gone without cold therapy because I’ve not wanted to get some huge chest freezer or a pro model. I am also going to be getting a pro model.

Kevin Rose: They get all scummy though, and then you’ve got to put chlorine in them and it’s a lot.

Tim Ferriss: But I went on Amazon and I found something called the Cold Pod, which you set up in like five minutes. You fill it with water from a hose, you put ice in and it works perfectly well as a cold plunge.

Kevin Rose: Is it like a little body wrap?

Tim Ferriss: And I ended up buying a Yeti cooler to store ice in. So I have a few days of ice. And it’s, let’s see, what would it be? It would be like if you were standing, maybe it’s hip height and it’s probably three feet in diameter. And you get in, you just kind of crouch in there and it works fucking great. It works really well — and it costs like 150 or 200 bucks maybe. I don’t know. Maybe it’s a hundred bucks. It’s not crazy.

Kevin Rose: 169.

Tim Ferriss: There you go. And I’ve been really impressed with this thing. It’s very basic. And even when it’s been very hot outside, you put in two bags of ice and you let it sit for 20 minutes, it’s going to get pretty cold. It’s not going to be 30 degrees, but it’s probably going to be mid-fifties, depending on how much water you have in there. Pro tip, the more water you have in there, the more ice you’re going to need to cool it. So don’t fill it all the way up to the top, fill it up like halfway and then add the ice. And it’s been a game changer for me.

Kevin Rose: This is a plastic trash can, dude.

Tim Ferriss: Well, no, it’s not a plastic trash can.

Kevin Rose: I mean, props to whoever made this shit because it probably cost them like 15 bucks to build one of these things.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it’s not a trash can, just to be clear. Look, we’re not talking about a fucking Maserati. But here’s what’s nice about it. It’s very easy to set up. It is not a trash can because that makes it sound like it’s like mid-chest height and hard. It’s easy to pack. You can actually travel with it, if you want to travel with it. I would just say with people who have — 

Kevin Rose: How do you travel with it?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, it’s super easy, man.

Kevin Rose: Oh, it folds up?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it folds up. You can stick it in the bag and take it with you. It’s super easy.

Kevin Rose: To your hotel room.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, the hotel loves 50 gallons of water spilling out. So for those people who have perhaps heard about the benefits of cold therapy but have avoided it because it’s too expensive, it’s too time-consuming, whatever. This is a way to test it. And I would just say this is a low hurdle way to test it out. And I used it earlier today, it’s fantastic, changed my day. So that’s the Cold Pod. And there are a bunch of other options that look basically identical. I just went with the one with the best reviews. Nothing fancy.

Kevin Rose: I need something like this because I don’t want to commit to sterilizing my water. That’s always been the problem with these things. I just want something I can get into. But how many bags of ice do you really need to pull this off?

Tim Ferriss: I’d have to go look at the bags that are in the Yeti right now. I mean you need — 

Kevin Rose: Like six?

Tim Ferriss: No. Well, it depends on the size of the bag, right? I would say, I’m guessing, I have no idea if this is accurate, two 20 pound bags of ice probably. So something like that, assuming that it is about half full. If you fill it up to the brim, you are making a mistake because now to lower the temperature, you’re going to need a higher volume, a larger volume of ice. But if we’re talking about, let’s just say it’s halfway up and then you put in two 20 pound bags of ice, you’re set. So with a Yeti cooler and this thing, I am good to go. 

I’ve got a question for you, Kev. Have you ever read poetry? This is a hard left.

Kevin Rose: Yes.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah? What do you read?

Kevin Rose: I shouldn’t say it’s poetry.

Tim Ferriss: It’s tweets.

Kevin Rose: No, no, no. Let me tell you, I’m going to send you the book that I have found that I started reading recently that was fantastic. But I’ve dabbled.

Tim Ferriss: Horton Hears a Who?

Kevin Rose: No, no, no. I’ve had a couple of books that I’ve picked up, but they’re mostly haiku books. For me, haiku is kind of my poetry.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, sure. It’s sort of in the zone, right?

Kevin Rose: It’s in the zone. I like haiku because it really has to hit. Don’t fuck with me. It really has to hit, though. You know what I mean? You’ve got three lines, you’ve got to pull something pretty amazing. Speaking of that sci-fi writer, it really forces you to have something really dense and trigger, make the mind leap in those three lines, as they say.

Tim Ferriss: It’s a strong constraint.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, for sure.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I was wondering because I’ve been delving strongly back into poetry. And that Ethan Hawke nine-minute TED Talk, which is very informal, but don’t let it fool you, he prepared for it, the giving yourself permission to be creative. He talks about poetry and he mentions, and I’m going to butcher this, but he says, “No one really cares about poetry, or you wonder why on Earth people would read poetry until you have something happen. It could be something tragic, like the death of a parent. It could be something incredibly joyous, like the birth of a child. And you wonder, has anyone ever felt this way before? How am I going to get through this? Or how should I think about this? And then poetry becomes really relevant or it can become really relevant.”

And I’ve been delving back into Mary Oliver. I read her collection, Devotions. And I recently bought a small collection called Dream Work, which I haven’t finished. So in disclosure, if you read it and you hate it, I’m not going to take the blame for it. I also have reread now multiple times this collection of newly translated Rumi, called Gold, by Haleh Liza Gafori.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, Rumi’s great.

Tim Ferriss: Who is particularly interesting to me because she is a poet herself in English, but she’s also a native Farsi speaker. So she can go back to the source material, the original, and translate effectively. And what many people don’t realize is that many versions of translated poetry are not actually directly translated. They take some earlier English translation from the 1920s or something and then they turn it into better poetry. But now you have a leap from, say, Farsi to English to English, which is like a game of telephone, things get distorted. Whereas she can go directly. So Gold, this very short collection of Rumi poetry, I’ve reread a number of times.

And this particular poet, I have not read this yet, but you can see this, it says Time Is a Mother by Ocean Vuong, V-U-O-N-G, which I assume is Vietnamese. I read his first book, which blew my mind. I’m not sure why I was drawn to it. I bought it as an impulse purchase at some Barnes and Noble in New York City, and I think it was probably the title. The title was Night Sky with Exit Wounds, which is a great fucking title. It’s so good. And it had this family photo.

Kevin Rose: That’s a great title. I love a good title.

Tim Ferriss: Isn’t it great? And it was like a family photo on the front. And I was like, what the fuck is going on here? So I picked it up. And I will warn people in advance, trigger warning for some people, there are some very graphic sex scenes in this poetry book. So there’s that. But I was so impressed.

I have not read his new collection yet, but Night Sky with Exit Wounds, an apology to the author if I’m butchering your name, I was very impressed. And what I loved about it also is that I’m generally reading the words of dead poets, generally.

Kevin Rose: Oh, my God, dude.

Tim Ferriss: Do you know what I mean? I’m always reading the words of dead poets, and this is a contemporary. I would guess that this author is younger than I am. And it still put me into the cosmic philosophical washing machine and fucked me up. And I was like, okay, all right.

Kevin Rose: Can I give you a couple of recommendations then, if you’re into this?

Tim Ferriss: Yes.

Kevin Rose: There’s a book called Japanese Death Poems. It’s fantastic.

Tim Ferriss: I was gifted that by a friend of mine who used to be Marine Force recon, and it’s fucking amazing.

Kevin Rose: Okay, awesome.

Tim Ferriss: How did you find that book?

Kevin Rose: There’s haiku in there as well. It was part of my whole discovery of haiku. So that one is great.

Tim Ferriss: I know. But how did you discover that? I’m curious, before you get to the next one. How did you find it?

Kevin Rose: I’ll tell you how. I read a book called Three Simple Lines, which Henry Shukman, the Zen master that you’ve had on the podcast, recommended to me. And Natalie Goldberg is the author. She was author of this book called Down the Bones, I think it’s called.

Tim Ferriss: Writing Down the Bones. Writing Down the Bones.

Kevin Rose: That’s right. Writing Down the Bones.

Tim Ferriss: That is a great book. Great book.

Kevin Rose: She has a book called Three Simple Lines, which is about haiku and it’s fantastic. It’s a really good book. That got me into haiku. That got me excited about a bunch of other of the greats like Basho and Buson, some of the best Japanese haiku writers. I bought a book called — 

Tim Ferriss: The OGs.

Kevin Rose: OG Crew. So I bought a book called The Sound of Water. And then that led me to the Japanese Death Poems. And then there was one other one that I wanted to tell you about that is really awesome, which is, oh, here it is, I’m going to mess up the Japanese pronunciation. It’s Chiyo-ni. Are you familiar with it? C-H-I-Y-O, Chiyo-ni, N-I. Is that how you would say that?

Tim Ferriss: I don’t know. I’d have to look it up. What is that?

Kevin Rose: So she is a Japanese woman haiku master. And so if you go and look up, basically, haiku masters back in the day, this would probably come as no surprise, were all men. And so she’s one of the very few that was taken in and broke out and became a Japanese haiku master. And so it’s just a really kind of awesome story. And you get some haiku from a female back in those days, which is a long time ago.

Tim Ferriss: Super rare.

Kevin Rose: Super rare. Yes. Super rare.

Tim Ferriss: Super rare. Yeah. I am reading. Okay, so I think it’s Fukuda Chiyo-ni, so that’s her name, Fukuda. Fukuda, which means, I guess, fortuitous rice paddy, Fukuda Chiyo-ni.

Kevin Rose: That’s amazing.

Tim Ferriss: It’s like thousand era. Ooh, my kanji are failing me right now. Ni, I’m blanking on. Was Japanese poet of the Edo period and a Buddhist nun. She’s widely regarded as one of the greatest poets of haiku, and then hokku, I don’t know what that is. Some of Chiyo’s best works include “The Morning Glory,” “Putting up My Hair,” and “Again the Women.” Fascinating. Okay. Yeah, I’ve not had any exposure to her.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, definitely worth picking up. I think it’s out of print. I was just looking right now.

Tim Ferriss: Holy shit. She began writing haiku at seven, and by age 17 had become very popular all over Japan. That’s nuts. Considering that she was born in 1703. So to be born in 1703, and by 17, as a woman in Japan, to be famous all over Japan, that’s bananas.

Kevin Rose: Right. And I had seen some of her work in these other books and it was just mind-blowing. And I’m like, who is this woman? And then I did, similar to what you did, probably a year ago when I read the Wikipedia entry or whatever and I was like, holy shit, she was a badass.

Tim Ferriss: All right, I’ll check it out. So what was the name of the book, then, Chiyo-ni? Is that it?

Kevin Rose: Yeah, it’s Chiyo-ni: Woman Haiku Master. That’s the one I purchased. There could be others about her, but that was the one that I had purchased, which is probably just a compilation of her works.

Tim Ferriss: Cool. So other books I’ll throw out there for people interested. I recently listened to, I’ve been doing a lot of audiobooks recently, Coyote America. And I think the subtitle is, A Natural and Supernatural History, which I believe is by Dan Flores. Yes. Coyote America: A Natural and Supernatural History. And it’s got 4.6 on Amazon, with more than 1,500 reviews. And it’s a biological, natural evolutionary history of the coyote, but also a supernatural, aka mythological, history of coyote and the significance of coyote in different indigenous traditions. And it goes through the entire span of history. Also drawing, most interestingly, I think, parallels between the evolution and adaptation of Homo sapiens and the evolution and adaptation of coyotes.

Kevin Rose: This sounds horrible.

Tim Ferriss: It’s uncanny.

Kevin Rose: It sounds horrible.

Tim Ferriss: It sounds horrible? 

Kevin Rose: Okay. Sorry. Sorry. You love coyotes.

Tim Ferriss: Wow, so judgy.

Kevin Rose: You love wolves. Wolves are your [inaudible].

Tim Ferriss: No, coyotes would be first, probably, wolves would be second.

Kevin Rose: What’s the one in the mouth?

Tim Ferriss: Those were wolves. When I spent time with arctic wolves, I mean gray wolves, but from Canada.

Kevin Rose: That’s crazy.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, on the teeth. That’s the greeting. Yeah. By the way, folks who may wonder, wolf head, not the same as a dog head. They’re fucking humongous. They can put your entire head in their mouths. They are not the same as dogs. But I would identify more with coyote. And it’s a fascinating history to recognize how adaptive both humans, in the sense of Homo sapiens, and coyotes have been over time. I mean, humans attempted the most systematic extermination of coyotes as a species unlike any other species in the history of humankind. I mean, we’re talking about millions upon millions upon millions of poison bait traps and so on set. And despite that, coyotes have proliferated and adapted beyond anyone’s wildest imaginations.

Now, part of that is from the removal of their check and balance, which is gray wolves. So there’s the removal of the gray wolf as the apex predator, which then has resulted, in part, in this proliferation of coyote populations. But because they were never the top predator, they have a wariness and caution about them that makes them very hard to kill. Furthermore, when they’re under pressure, their litter size increases, isn’t that wild, as an evolutionary adaptation? When they’re under threat, they go from having, I’m making this up, but let’s just say three pups per litter to six or seven pups per litter.

Kevin Rose: Oh, crazy.

Tim Ferriss: Isn’t that wild?

Kevin Rose: It is wild.

Tim Ferriss: It’s a fascinating book. It’s really, really interesting. And also interesting from the lens of looking at how we have historically looked at coyotes as a reflection of the aspects of ourselves that we were least willing to accept. Super interesting. Going all the way back to Mark Twain. I love Mark Twain, however, on the particular account of coyotes, created a whole ton of fucking damage and craziness. But it was a good book. It was a good book. Especially the first half, I would say.

Kevin Rose: You know what I wish there was? This is just me being a random two glass and a half in — 

Tim Ferriss: It’s The Random Show.

Kevin Rose: It’s The Random Show. You know what’d be fun? I’m just making this up. I like product ideas. Wouldn’t it be cool if you could say, “Hey, I’m Tim. At 7:00 p.m. tonight I’m going to listen to this coyote book for an hour. And we could all tune in and listen at the same time and see comments and chat and stuff like that. And there would be no voice. It wouldn’t be disruptive. We’re just all listening. And it would be like, you could say one thing per five minutes or whatever, or give a heart or something when you’d like a certain segment of it or something. There’d be something pretty powerful about that.

Tim Ferriss: That would be super fun. I think people would really dig that.

Kevin Rose: Especially if you were kind of listening at the same time. It’s like, oh, I’m listening with Tim right now.

Tim Ferriss: I love that idea. I love that idea.

Kevin Rose: Right. If anybody from Audible’s out there.

Tim Ferriss: Being synchronous and connected in that way.

Kevin Rose: Dude, tech, it’s amazing.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, that’s not what I was going to say. I mean, it is amazing. Amazingly good and amazingly bad. I mean, we are more connected than we have ever been in terms of communication, and more isolated and lonely than we have ever been. Holy shit. What a situation.

Kevin Rose: Good point. All right, let’s get through — we’re an hour and a half in, but I’ve got some crazy shit to tell you still. Can I get through — 

Tim Ferriss: Well, let’s go to crazy town. Come on, Kevin Rose has been holding out.

Kevin Rose: You and I have been supplement geeks for a while, you more so than me for many, many years. You got me onto some crazy shit early on. I always give credit back to the Tim Feriss for the earliest — you got me into everything, man. All the HGH and stuff, then you were shooting me up with the tests and — 

Tim Ferriss: Fecal matter transplants from Tasmania.

Kevin Rose: Fecal matter transplants.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. All the ketamine suppositories.

Kevin Rose: Just the best. I mean, I just did one before we started the show, so feeling it. All right, so a few things. Is that a thing, by the way? Do people put ketamine up their butt?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah. They boof the K up the bung.

Kevin Rose: Do they?

Tim Ferriss: It’s a thing. It’s a thing. Yeah. I think it’s ridiculous, but — 

Kevin Rose: It’s fast.

Tim Ferriss: — people like any excuse to take drugs up the bung.

Kevin Rose: Put stuff up their butt.

Tim Ferriss: This is also a constant through human history. Yeah, go figure that one out.

Kevin Rose: Do you have a book about it and coyotes?

Tim Ferriss: The 4-Hour Coyote Suppository?

Kevin Rose: Yeah. All right.

Tim Ferriss: I don’t really want the coyote up the bung. That sounds uncomfortable.

Kevin Rose: It does. Let’s go straight into supplements.

Tim Ferriss: For everybody involved.

Kevin Rose: A few of the things that I wanted to mention were — you’ve cut back on supplements, is that fair to say, over the years? When I went to your medicine cabinet one time, there was a thousand things in there.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. I mean, less than I used to, for sure. I mean, I still take more supplements than anyone else I know, except for maybe Peter.

Kevin Rose: You tell me how many of these you agree with or you take or you’re curious about. Okay? Number one, I have found that collagen for us getting older, is legit, in terms of reducing visible lines, just general skin health.

Tim Ferriss: You’re doing great.

Kevin Rose: I know. Come on. Do you take collagen? Do you take collagen?

Tim Ferriss: This is going to sound funny. Collagen makes me itchy. I don’t know why.

Kevin Rose: Does it?

Tim Ferriss: I get itchy. Yeah, so I do take collagen. I think it’s very interesting also, as a flooding dose, prior to resistance training, and people can look this up. Taking collagen prior to stimulating, say, a location of injury, is very, very interesting. It is interesting. Yeah.

Kevin Rose: I used to have left — 

Tim Ferriss: But, I hate being really fucking itchy, so I don’t take it too much.

Kevin Rose: So, two things. Rhonda Patrick puts together a great data analysis of all the different published studies that are out there, and there’s really strong evidence around just general skin elasticity, as you get older. And then, obviously, joints in general. If you’re running, any of that type of stuff, just really healthy joint stuff. Great Lakes, no affiliation, a brand that Rhonda takes, I’m a fan of. Okay, I’m just going to [inaudible].

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, your cheeks look like a newborn’s buttocks. Is that from the collagen? They look very voluptuous.

Kevin Rose: One other thing before we get off the collagen train, bone broth. Okay. So Brodo, which you know Marco, right?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I do.

Kevin Rose: You’ve met him before.

Tim Ferriss: Of course I know Marco.

Kevin Rose: Okay, so Marco, James Beard award-winning chef. Best chef in New York City.

Tim Ferriss: Amazing. He’s been on my podcast.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. Amazing guy.

Tim Ferriss: He’s fantastic. He’s fantastic.

Kevin Rose: Here’s the cool thing, is I talked to him. Brodo Forever was his broth company where he shipped you frozen broth to your house. And I used it all through COVID. It was fantastic. The best broth, kills everything on the shelves that I’ve been a part of or I’ve tasted. He figured out a way to get it so that he doesn’t have to add any preservatives, no concentrates or nothing, but shelf-stable. So it’s fantastic. And these are single servings. You rip them up and put them in the cup and just one minute in the microwave and you’re good to go. It’s my go-to broth. Brodo is fantastic. Brodo.com, no affiliation, not invested, just a friend.

All right. You ready for two more things?

Tim Ferriss: That’s quite an inhale.

Kevin Rose: So I’ll also mention, and this is a little self-interested because I’m one of the largest investors in this company. So he’s also played around with bone broth from axis deer from Maui, which is from Maui Nui Venison, which I’m very involved with.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, he has?

Kevin Rose: And the collagen and protein levels are fucking bananas. They’re off the charts to the point where people think there are errors in the lab reports. It’s really, really wild.

Tim Ferriss: Wow.

Kevin Rose: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Would they do pills of that? Because that would be really interesting in pill form.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, I don’t think so. Right now, it’s just whole food or nothing, which I kind of like, because it forces you to do a little bit of work. But Marco is the master of broth. M-O-B.

Kevin Rose: He really is.

Tim Ferriss: He really is. Yeah. Try out Brodo, 100 percent.

Kevin Rose: If you live in New York, by the way, he’s got physical locations where you can go and get these broths in cup form, like if you’re going to a cafe. And you’ll know — anyone in New York will tell you it’s the best. It’s just legit.

All right, a couple more things. Three more things, real quick. Aesop? You know the brand Aesop?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. What is that?

Kevin Rose: They make little tiny baby hand sanitizers now. And they smell amazing.

Tim Ferriss: A-E-S-O-P?

Kevin Rose: Yeah. Do you not know this brand?

Tim Ferriss: No, I do know the brand. What are you using your hand sanitizer for?

Kevin Rose: No, just when you’re in Ubers and shit. You’ve just got your little hand sanitizer. Got kids. Okay. So I just want to throw that out there. I have no affiliation. 

Next thing is, creatine fucks up my stomach. It really does.

Tim Ferriss: Gives you, yeah. Potential for disaster pants high.

Kevin Rose: All kinds of things are wrong with creatine. But as someone that works out, you want to take it because you get a little boost in the gym and all that good stuff. 

Kevin Rose: Have you ever tried this stuff right here?

Tim Ferriss: Kre-Alkalyn, yeah. I’ve got some in the bathroom.

Kevin Rose: Do you really?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I do.

Kevin Rose: It’s buffered creatine. Dude, it eliminated all my stomach issues. Anyway, so it’s done by NOW Sports. If you had issues taking creatine and you’re working out and you want to take some, I just want to throw it out there as something that is good.

Tim Ferriss: You want to hear a horrifying story that — 

Kevin Rose: Oh, please.

Tim Ferriss: — I would never tell you if I were sober?

Kevin Rose: Oh, of course.

Tim Ferriss: I was in San Francisco and I was rushing to prepare for an international flight, long international flight. I can’t remember where I was going, but it was a long flight.

Kevin Rose: 12 plus hours, kind of deal.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. That kind of deal. And I was running around, running around, and I had two double espressos. I had some espresso machine.

Kevin Rose: Uh-oh.

Tim Ferriss: I had two double espressos, a bunch of magnesium — 

Kevin Rose: Oh, I know where this is going.

Tim Ferriss: — and a whole shit ton of creatine.

Kevin Rose: Four grams, five grams? What did you do?

Tim Ferriss: Some stupid amount. Unnecessary amount. And thought that was a good idea for whatever reason. And so I’m driving to the airport and I’m like, “Oh, God, my stomach doesn’t feel so good.” And I’m like, “Oh, I’m kind of gassy. Oh, not feeling so great.” And so I do a little lean, and just promptly shit all over myself.

Kevin Rose: Oh, my God.

Tim Ferriss: So bad.

Kevin Rose: Are you in an Uber?

Tim Ferriss: No, no, I’m driving myself to long-term parking. And I’m like, “Okay.” And so I’m like, “Wow, this is a disaster. What do I do here?”

Kevin Rose: You bust out the luggage.

Tim Ferriss: No, this is when I wish I had your Aesop hand sanitizer. And so I’m on my way and I’m just like, “All right, how do I find the silver lining of this? This is so bad. And I’m going to be late to my flight. I might miss my flight.” And I call one of my close friends. I’m not going to mention him by name, because this is the one guy who’s going to find this funnier than anyone else. So I call him and I’m like, “You’ll not believe what just happened.” And I explained the whole thing. And of course, he gets extreme delight out of this whole situation, which gives me some redeeming aspect to the whole thing.

I get to the long-term parking garage and I’m like, “What do I do here?” So take off my underwear, wipe myself down with my underwear, chuck it under some other car, and run to my flight with no underwear on, with long pants, obviously. And then sit down for a 12-hour flight smelling like I’ve just taken a tumble through a fucking slaughterhouse.

Kevin Rose: Were you economy at that stage of your career?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah. This was middle-seat economy for 12 hours, kind of thing.

Kevin Rose: Oh, fuck.

Tim Ferriss: It was so bad. I mean, it was bad for me. It was embarrassing. But it was bad also for everyone around me. And I’m not proud of this, but I’ve had enough Domaine Tempier to confess.

Kevin Rose: Everyone’s had a close call, if not a fatal disaster in this domain. 

Tim Ferriss: If you’ve had enough creatine and caffeine, don’t lie to me. You’ve had disaster pants at some point. Either you saved it and you slid into home, or you had absolute triage where it was a disaster. 

Kevin Rose: Tim, you mentioned Aesop for, you wish you had some during this occasion. Maybe they’ll want to be a sponsor. You could probably cut this little story out and use it and be like, “I shit myself one time and if I only had Aesop hand sanitizer, the whole plane would’ve been happier.”

Tim Ferriss: I think that’ll be one of their highest converting ads of all time.

Kevin Rose: Exactly.

Tim Ferriss: I have something to show you as an artifact, physical artifact. So this is the latest CØCKPUNCH Coffee, which — it’s very pretty.

Kevin Rose: Wow.

Tim Ferriss: It’s very reflective and gorgeous.

Kevin Rose: That is beautiful. That’s a lot of CØCKPUNCH. How big is that bag?

Tim Ferriss: This bag is — how many ounces is this? Let’s see. This is 10 ounces. So we’ve got the CØCKPUNCH Miami Vice magenta and teal type colors in the front. We’ve got all the greater houses on the side. We’ve got the eightfold arena icon on that — 

Kevin Rose: So cool.

Tim Ferriss: — opposite side, which is also for the clerics’ house, Mnemos. And then we’ve got the description on the back, QR code to the whole story. And then we have the UPC, which means that this is retail ready. So I will have some announcements in the not-too-distant future.

Kevin Rose: Oh, fuck. I’ve got to buy some more of your NFTs.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. This coffee, holy shit. I’ve never been a meth addict and I don’t want to trivialize it. But when I was testing for this, I didn’t understand how real coffee masters and baristas test coffee. So I was doing multiple cups of coffee for every variation that I tested, and I was drinking 12 cups of coffee a day. I was so cracked out. It was not ideal. But I did test dozens and dozens of varieties, and ultimately ended up on — 

Kevin Rose: Ethiopian. What mix is it?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. This is Bombay Sidama Ethiopia. This is Ethiopia Mother Station Washed. 

Kevin Rose: Ethiopian coffees are just so chill. Nobody’s offended. Everyone just loves them. They’re just right down the fairway. They’re not too heavy, not too light. They just give you a good flavor profile. Nobody’s pissed.

Tim Ferriss: Not too oily. This is also medium blend.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. Good solid medium roast.

Tim Ferriss: And I want to give credit where credit is due. This is roasted on a Bellwether. So Bellwether is all electric. The lowest carbon imprint coffee that you can purchase. It’s all electric, which also makes it very replicable, which is super interesting, right? Because when you’re using analog roasting technology, there’s a pretty high degree of variance. Whereas with Bellwether, and Bellwether is B-E-L-L-W-E-T-H-E-R, it is all electric. So you can dial in specs and really replicate on demand, which is impressive to me. I’ve been very impressed with their consistency. 

Kevin Rose: So I’ve got to say, on the whole conversation we had earlier about the CØCKPUNCH name, if you go the route of stimulant drinks/male — 

Tim Ferriss: It’s perfect. It’s perfect.

Kevin Rose:  — enhancement, you’re fucking set, dude.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah, it’s right down the fairway.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. The CØCKPUNCH pills at the 7-Eleven behind the counter that just get you going, you’re good.

Tim Ferriss: Right at the impulse purchase row, right next to 5-Hour Energy.

Kevin Rose: Do you need a lift? CØCKPUNCH.

Tim Ferriss: CØCKPUNCH. Yeah. And also all of my proceeds are going to the Foundation, so they go directly to early stage science and all that stuff.

Kevin Rose: Dude, that new jet that you guys bought for your foundation, it’s beautiful.

Tim Ferriss: You’re such a prick.

Kevin Rose: Did you get a G6?

Tim Ferriss: I do not have a jet for the Foundation. Kevin is punching me in the nuts, as per usual. #CØCKPUNCH.

Kevin Rose: Okay.

Tim Ferriss: All right. What else you got?

Kevin Rose: I’ve got two more things to say. So one thing, and this one here, I’m about three months into testing. It’s called OneSkin. And I am not a person that goes out and buys skin products. But I have said, as I’ve gotten older, you think about your crow’s feet and all the other shit you have going on, eyebrows and all this stuff. Eyebrows are fine, but I don’t know why — right here, this part right here.

Tim Ferriss: No wine involved in this podcast.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, exactly. But what got me interested is they isolated — this is a very science-driven team that isolated a peptide that clears out senescent cells. And — 

Tim Ferriss: Okay. It basically euthanizes all the people in the senior living home, basically?

Kevin Rose: Pretty much.

Tim Ferriss: From a cell perspective?

Kevin Rose: It makes all the bad cells die and all the fresh ones live and lines go away. I think this is all bullshit. But here’s the thing. Rhonda Patrick was the first one to talk about it because she was convinced by the science. And then David Sinclair also tweeted about it because he was really convinced by the science. And I’m like, “Listen, these are two people that are way above my pay grade that on the science side, I respect. And if they’re talking about this peptide and they’re liking the peer reviewed articles that are coming out about it, or the science is coming out about it, I’m going to pay attention.” There’s one other person that tweeted about it too.

But anyway, I picked some up and I’m three months in and I’m starting to notice little tiny changes just in skin quality and less bumpiness that I would have and more just supple — I’ve also had a lot of pizza lately, so I probably have fatter cheeks — 

Tim Ferriss: You look very supple.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, pleasantly plump. But I would say that in general, I’m pretty impressed. So I just want to throw that out there. I’m not the scientist, but a couple amazing scientists have already recommended this. It’s called OneSkin.

Tim Ferriss: What’s the name of this thing?

Kevin Rose: OneSkin.

Tim Ferriss: OneSkin.

Kevin Rose: O-N-E?

Tim Ferriss: I’m not an investor.

Kevin Rose: OneSkin?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, just O-N-E, skin. And they don’t have this extensive product line of all these things. There’s three things you can buy, a cleanser, an eye cream, and a lotion.

Kevin Rose: I like that. I like that. It’s not a thousand things.

Tim Ferriss: More and more, I like a few SKUs. If you have a thousand things, I’m like, “All right, you’re lining your pipeline with all this shit to feed me as a customer.” But if you have one, two, three things, all right, you’re really focused on refining that product.

Kevin Rose: I have a buddy that had lost a bunch of weight lately and had a bunch of lines in his neck and so he started applying a bunch of this stuff to his neck and he’s like, “I’m noticing some results.” And I was like, “This is interesting.” It’s worth letting other people try and see what they think.

Tim Ferriss: My crow’s feet are like fucking brontosaurus feet at this point. They’re so fucking — they’re out of control.

Kevin Rose: Dude, you should try it on one eye for three months. That’d be fucking cool, right? Let’s see what happens.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, that’s a good idea. That’s a great idea. Try it on one eye.

Kevin Rose: On your dates, you’re like — you’re all fucked up.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. End up the crow’s feet pirate. That’d be great.

Kevin Rose: Just one eye. Your date’s like, “Oh, something’s going on.” All right.

Tim Ferriss: What was it called? No, no, no. OneSkin.

Kevin Rose: OneSkin. Yeah. Anyway. Lastly, this is a Peter Attia recommendation. I wanted a really clean, clean, clean, clean protein for when I make shakes and work out. You probably know about ProMix, right?

Tim Ferriss: No, I don’t know anything about them.

Kevin Rose: Oh. So this is Attia’s favorite protein, or at least it was as of a couple months ago.

Tim Ferriss: Is he an investor in ProMix?

Kevin Rose: I don’t think so. No. It’s called ProMix. The founders, I was reading up on who’s behind it and it’s just insanely, insanely clean. Grass fed, hormone-free cows, minimally processed. There’s a lot of them that are out there like this. But I know Attia has a whole SWAT team of people that do all the due diligence for him when he’s considering anything new. And if he’s going to say something’s interesting, I pay attention. And they actually make these little tiny bars that are whey protein little rice crispy treats, kind of thing. But they don’t spike your glucose, because I wear my continuous glucose monitor. And it puts on — I think they’re either 15 or 20 grams of protein. And so I just have those as snacks that I travel with as well. So ProMix is his favorite protein, as of the last time I chatted with him.

Tim Ferriss: So, ProMix. And then do you want to mention this rice cooker?

Kevin Rose: Oh, yeah.

Tim Ferriss: I think that might be interesting.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. So I found a rice cooker. I don’t have a link to it in front of me. But there was a rice cooker that I stumbled upon. So I love rice. But for me, as someone that’s — 

Tim Ferriss: Me too. Rice is fucking delicious. It’s so good.

Kevin Rose: It’s so good. And Tim, back in the day, and you’ll remember this quite well, but when you were into continuous glucose monitors and then you got me into them shortly after, you used to have to manually inject yourself with that big ass syringe. Do you remember, to put those in?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, so bad. It was so bad.

Kevin Rose: Do you remember how bad — 

Tim Ferriss: It was like a barbecue fork tong that you had to stick in your abdomen. It was really bad.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. And you would watch the needle go in. There was no quick action. You had to push it in, then push it out.

Tim Ferriss: Terrible.

Kevin Rose: And then you would get this continuous glucose monitor, and this was whatever, 10 years ago. And you started doing it and I thought you were crazy. And then I copied you two months later and started doing it. Three months later, started doing it. And one of the things I noticed, and I’ve noticed since my entire time doing CGMs, is that rice is my biggest offender. If I eat a cup of rice, my shit is through the roof on the glucose side. And everybody’s different. Everybody has different microbiome. There’s a whole slew of factors on what happens here.

But here’s the interesting thing. Toshiba, who is a trusted brand, came out with a “low-carb rice cooker.” And I was like, “What the fuck is this? Low-carb. That’s bullshit. Right? We all know rice is high carb. What are they talking about? Brown rice?” All this shit, right? Even brown rice spikes me, by the way. So I did the research and what they’ve done is they created this clever little basket. They figured out that a typical rice cooker, 99.9 percent of rice cookers, you pour the water in, cook the rice, it stews in its own water, and your rice is done. You scoop it in your bowl. A bunch of the starch, call it 70 or so percent of it, is released in that water during the process of actually making and cooking the rice. So Toshiba invented a new rice cooker, they call it their fuzzy logic technology rice cooker that has a basket that lets all of the starchy water drain to the bottom, and you end up with a much lower glycemic load. It cuts the carbs by 34 percent. Sorry, 37 percent reduction in carbohydrate.

And dude, I ate a cup of rice, and I’m telling you, I can see it on my CGM. It does not spike me nearly as much as the full rice, which I thought was pretty awesome. I wouldn’t have believed this in anyone else, but Toshiba came out with it, and I was like, okay, “If Toshiba’s going to put their name behind it, they must’ve done the research.” It’s 179 bucks.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, they’re a big dog.

Kevin Rose: It’s $179. If you want to just cut a little bit of carbs out of you or if rice is a big offender for you. It works with oatmeal, it works with the whole slew. Brown rice, white rice and quinoa, the whole range of things. But anyway, I just thought it was really cool. It’s got 1,852 ratings with four and a half out of five stars. 4.6 stars out of five. So people love it. 300 plus have bought it in the last month. 

Tim Ferriss: Let me ask you this. Taste wise, is it as good?

Kevin Rose: Yeah. I couldn’t tell the difference.

Tim Ferriss: Okay.

Kevin Rose: A little bit on the texture. Little tiny bit on the texture. But I’d say, call it a maybe five to seven percent delta from what you’re normally experiencing on rice. So you’re not pissed. It’s fine. It’s fine. Nobody’s complaining.

Tim Ferriss: That’s a big deal. That’s a big deal. I fucking love rice. There are so many carbs that I can — 

Kevin Rose: Rice is the best.

Tim Ferriss: — I’m like, “Whatever. I can do without it.” I love rice. Oh, my god, do I love rice.

Kevin Rose: When you go hog, full hog on something, cheat, cheat night, what do you do? I’ll tell you what I did two nights ago. I went with Darya and we had a couple martinis.

Tim Ferriss: All right, you go. You go first.

Kevin Rose: And I pulled out out of the fridge — I had this mixed berry — it was a berry cookie ice cream or some shit. Do you feel like hell when you crush an entire pint of ice cream? I feel like I’ve just sinned beyond belief. It’s the worst.

Tim Ferriss: It’s been a while since I’ve crushed a whole pint of ice cream. My weaknesses are super clear. My weaknesses are cheesecake. So my question for any wait staff is from one to 10, no seven allowed, how good is your cheesecake? And if they give me an eight, nine, or a 10, I’ll do the cheesecake. There’s cheesecake, and then there’s carrot cake.

Kevin Rose: Carrot cake.

Tim Ferriss: So those are like two — oh, my God. But it has to be super moist, and the icing has to be really, really, really good.

Kevin Rose: I also can’t have big chunks of carrot in it. If it has big chunks of carrot, I’m just eating carrots.

Tim Ferriss: No, I don’t want — carrot cake is a joke. It’s fucking cake, right?

Kevin Rose: Right.

Tim Ferriss: I mean, no, if it’s got huge chunks of carrot, I’m not Bugs Bunny. I don’t need that.

Kevin Rose: Exactly.

Tim Ferriss: I don’t have a carrot deficiency.

Kevin Rose: Some people do that though. I’ve had some fucking carrots in there and I’m just like, “Why are there chunks of carrot?”

Tim Ferriss: I’m not into it. No. So those two, I will always go for. Pint of ice cream, and look, if it’s in front of me, I’m sure I’ll eat it. If I’ve had especially two drinks, two glasses or more of any drink — 

Kevin Rose: Like tonight?

Tim Ferriss: Like tonight. So martinis, you mentioned martinis.

Kevin Rose: I love a good martini.

Tim Ferriss: Is it an old fucker thing that they end up turning to martinis? Because I have become more and more interested in martinis.

Kevin Rose: Oh, my god, dude. So here’s the deal, dude. Martinis, the thing that is so beautiful about them is that if you order it correctly, it is spirit clean. So it’s not a heavy — there’s no sugar. So here’s what I do. I say, “Give me a gin martini.” I typically go with — I like the less botanical gins. So I’ll do a Boodles — 

Tim Ferriss: Me too.

Kevin Rose: — or something that’s just less botanical. And then I’ll add in two olives, and I’ll say, “Extra dry, extra cold.” And then you’re good to go. And just a tiny bit of vermouth. So on the dry side, rinse the glass with vermouth. And then so it’s mainly gin and you’ve got those couple olives in there and you’re good to go.

Tim Ferriss: What is your opinion on espresso in martinis?

Kevin Rose: I mean, I only do those at my friend’s bachelor parties or whatever, when you’re like, “I’m going to be out till 2:00 a.m.” because otherwise caffeine fucks me late at night.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Manhattan speedball. Yep. I love espresso martinis. I’ve got to be honest.

Kevin Rose: Dude, they’re really good. If you’re on a date, go to town, son. That’s a great way to go out and have fun.

Tim Ferriss: I’m back on the field. I’m not the young man I once was. My qi has been diminished. I need to compensate with caffeine.

Kevin Rose: Tim, you’ve got to move out here, dude. This is fertile ground. 

Tim Ferriss: I don’t know if I can deal with it. I don’t know if I can deal with it. Honestly.

It’s too intoxicating. How much time do you want to spend falling down the rabbit hole with Alice in Wonderland? It’s intoxicating.

Kevin Rose: Do you think they’re all kind of — can we bleep something out if I say it?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, of course.

Kevin Rose: Do you think they’re all [–] out here, or do you think it’s like — let’s bleep that part out. Are they all that type of person, or do you think it’s like, because I think there’s good people out here.

Tim Ferriss: No, no, no.

Kevin Rose: Not that she’s a bad person.

Tim Ferriss: This edit’s going to be amazing. So I think there are amazing people. It’s just you have to really wade through and sort through a lot in L.A. to get to the signal. It’s very hard.

Kevin Rose: What are you looking for in a relationship long term? What are your top go-tos, what do you want?

Tim Ferriss: What do I want? I want someone with — 

Kevin Rose: Don’t say physical —

Tim Ferriss: I mean the physical matters. Let’s not lie about it.

Kevin Rose: No doubt. Don’t get me wrong. I know what you want on the physicals.

Tim Ferriss: I’ll give Darya a compliment. Darya takes very good care of herself.

Kevin Rose: Oh, dude, she works out two hours a day.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I know. That’s not trivial, right? And it’s for her as much as it is for you.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. It’s not for me.

Tim Ferriss: It is a significant thing. Right? The physical practice is a significant thing. So there’s that. I mean, I like strong, physically attuned women.

Kevin Rose: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Now, strong doesn’t mean big. I’m not looking for a CrossFit games winner necessarily. But someone who is very physically attuned is important to me. That’s important to me personally and is important in a partner. Outside of that, I mean, I think that I’m looking for someone who has a clear sense of identity and direction because that direction may change, but if someone doesn’t have a clear, demonstrated ability to focus for at least a few years, I find that the relationship becomes this nitpicky project.

Kevin Rose: Well, you don’t want them also just hanging on, right? They’ve got to be their own show too, right? Not show, but you know what I mean. They’ve got to have their own shit going on.

Tim Ferriss: They have to have their own shit going on. 

Kevin Rose: How should we wrap things up? I’ve got way more things to talk about, but I know we’ve been going for a while.

Tim Ferriss: I mean, I’ll add one. All right, so let’s take a departure speech.

Kevin Rose: One more.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, sure. So I’ll give one. So mine is an app. You can find it on browser, on laptop as well, called Airalo, A-I-R-A-L-O, which is for cellular data overseas. And it is the easiest, most reliable approach that I’ve found to cellular data overseas. So if you’re going to any country, you can buy a cellular data plan. Even if, for instance, in my case, Verizon may not support — 

Kevin Rose: Oh, I can help you here. I’ve got a better solution than this, but go ahead.

Tim Ferriss: All right, well I can’t wait to hear. In case of Verizon, yeah, they want to “upgrade” you, in quotation marks, all the time to an unlimited data plan. But the cost question is open for me. So I’ve used Airalo, which I have been very happy with up to this point in time. So what’s your better alternative?

Kevin Rose: So here’s something that most people don’t know is that iPhones in particular, and I believe Android phones as well, they can support multiple SIMs. And at this point in time they’re called eSIMs because you don’t actually need a SIM card.

Tim Ferriss: So Airalo is an eSIM. Yeah.

Kevin Rose: Okay. So Google Fi is just insane because internationally they give you coverage in just so many countries. I don’t have the exact number, but I put on a secondary plan. So there’s two things that this helps you with. My main plan is Verizon and I use that for data because they have good 5G, I use it for my main phone number. No, sorry, I don’t use my phone number. I use it for data. I use my phone number at Google Fi because it’s protected by two-factor authentication, and all crazy security of Google Fi. So SIM swaps are very, they just can’t happen because there’s not a person to call, there’s a trick into doing a SIM swap. You have to actually log in with your Google account. So use that Google Fi as your main number, change the data to go to Verizon, so you get the good data package, because you can do this in the iPhone.

Tim Ferriss: So walk me through this just to back up. So I have a Verizon account. What do I do?

Kevin Rose: Okay, so you want to transfer your number to Google Fi.

Tim Ferriss: How do you do that?

Kevin Rose: Google Fi on the website will walk you through it. Now, Google Fi is not going to give you the best data. So what you then do is you say, “Okay, Verizon, I love you, but you’re going to be my data-only plan.” And they charge $20 a month or something for it. It’s data only. Okay. So that’s your eSIM that is data only. And then in the settings [they] say, “Hey, where do you want to get your data from?” And you say, “I want to get it from Verizon.” And then you’ve got the 5G network and you’re in the United States, you’re good to go.

And then your security of your main phone number is locked down by Google Fi. So that’s the most secure place that you can have it. Then, when you go abroad, because Google Fi has all of these international connections, it’s like over 200 destinations they say, they have coverage on, it’s insanely cheap. Their data plans are the cheapest that are out there. Then you go into your phone settings and say, “Switch my data from Verizon to Google Fi.” So now you’re Google Fi all the time when you’re international and one phone, you don’t have to switch phones or anything. And so I have this little two-bar thing that goes on. They show you two bars on your phone when you do both of the plans. So it’s great.

Tim Ferriss: I love it. Boom. So what is the infrastructure of Google Fi? How are they providing that data?

Kevin Rose: They use multiple providers, but it’s mainly T-Mobile in the United States. But it says that all plans include US, Canada, and Mexico. Unlimited plans and flexible plans data in 200-plus international destinations plus 5G in select countries. And their 5G country list just keeps growing and growing. It’s great, man. Every time I ever fly anywhere international, I just turn on Google Fi and I get the highest speed. It’s fantastic. And it is so inexpensive.

Tim Ferriss: Amazing. I’m on it. All right, so I’m taking notes too folks. All right, Kevin, you said you had one more.

Kevin Rose: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Do you have something else?

Kevin Rose: Last one. I’ve got a bunch of investing-related stuff, but you can get that on my podcast, kevinrose.com. There’ll be a link to the podcast at the top. But I would say the last thing, which is the absolute no-brainer right now: screw buying individual bonds. Rates are changing all the time. Vanguard, and this is not investment advice, this is just me saying what I do personally. When I do my bonds, rather than do bond funds or crazy medium-term or long-term bonds, we don’t want to screw that given where rates are at. VUSXX is the Vanguard fund that I use, and I think it’s a no-brainer in that it’s a hundred percent treasury-based. So they buy US government treasuries. It’s short-term bond fund. There’s no federal tax on that because they are United States Treasury. So only state tax.

So all these banks right now are being like, “Hey, we’ll give you four and a half percent. We’ll give you four percent.” Blah blah. Screw that. You go and put your money in those banks and they’re charging you both state and federal tax on that. Even though it may seem like a high-interest yield, you go set up a Vanguard account, buy this fund. Right now it’s, and this obviously changes day by day, non-investment advice again, right now it’s 5.32 percent compound yield on Vanguard with the smallest management fee and they’re just buying US treasuries. You’re getting 5.3 percent with no federal tax, like home run. It is just a no-brainer. So that’s what I’m doing on the bond side right now. 

Everything else, index invested, set it, forget it, except for Nvidia. I also think that there’s some upside in AMD potentially on the low end AI side.

Tim Ferriss: Wait, what? Hold on. Say that again.

Kevin Rose: Nvidia — 

Tim Ferriss: You said Nvidia.

Kevin Rose: Nvidia, I think’s, going to three trillion. I think it’s going to three trillion.

Tim Ferriss: The new plutonium. It’s like the new arms race.

Kevin Rose: AI is the shit. It’s not going away anytime soon. It’s not a fad. This is not VR/AR bullshit. This is really going to change the entire world. Nvidia is the dominant player in this space. The stock, if you look at it, it’s scary as because the run up has just been the most insane steep climb you’ve ever seen. I think long-term it’s going to be a $3 trillion company. It’s close to two. Hovering at two right now. This is a growth play. This is not an angel investment. I hold some just because I like to hold a few individual stocks. I think AMD is a good cheap play for this. They still have a pretty high price to earnings ratio.

And also I met with a good friend of mine that’s an insanely smart PhD from MIT, that is one of the earliest inventors of a bunch of AI. Sold his company to Apple. I won’t name him, but he told me that the problem with AMD is they have an underdeveloped software stack for AI, but they’re rapidly trying to fix that because that’s the biggest issue that AMD has right now. AMD is way cheaper than Nvidia right now. So if I was going to say, okay, I’ve got X number of dollars for an AI play, two things, dollar cost average your way in. So you’re not buying the high and not buying the low, you’re just spending a fixed amount of money over six months or so to slowly work your way into the market. If you don’t don’t know what dollar cost averaging is, Google search it.

And then AMD would be like, if I put 75 percent in Nvidia, I put 25 percent in AMD — non-investment advice — TSMC is the manufacturer of all the chips. TSMC makes Nvidia chips, AMD chips. They are the backbone of this entire world when it comes to manufacturing CPUs, GPUs. The biggest concern there is they’re in Taiwan. Hotly contested China issues. I don’t touch it because I worry about China. I talked to my buddy, again, my buddy that’s really, really deep on the AI side, one of my most trusted advisors on the AI side. He said that, and this was a big shocker to me, he told me that Facebook invested in AI a few years ago and bought up some of the best engineers in AI. So he would not be surprised if Facebook unveils some crazy shocking, amazing AI tech in the next six months to a year. And so I trust him.

I’m not buying Facebook stock. I think they’re fucked up for a whole bunch of other reasons. They’re spending way too much on VR and AR, but that was eyeopening to me. The other two big players is Google and Amazon. Google’s only showing a little bit of their cards right now, not revealing the whole thing. Bard, their AI is insanely, insanely locked down. The real Bard behind the scenes, if you’re at Google, it’s 10x improvement over what they have publicly available.

Tim Ferriss: It’s a lot better. I’ll give a wink. It’s a lot better.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. Last thing, NTDOY, Nintendo, Super Mario Bros. Second highest, what is it when they have the sales, box office sales and of all animated films. The Super Mario Bros. Amazing movie. They’re sitting on a fuck ton of IP. So a nibble for me is Nintendo. I nibble because I see them playing with Universal Studios. Could they be the next Disney? I don’t know, man. Zelda could be the next Lord of the Rings. There’s a lot of IP locked up there in Nintendo. I think that that could be interesting.

Tim Ferriss: That’s interesting. That’s fun. That’s fun. Yeah. Whoever are wondering also, Nintendo, way back in the day, Nintendo.

Kevin Rose: Nintendo, I knew you were going to do that. You always do that do that shit.

Tim Ferriss: Initially they made trading cards, Hanafuda trading cards in Japan, and they still make them.

Kevin Rose: They were so oishī.

They’re just beautiful and delicious.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, delicious. Yeah. Yeah. Utsukushī. Utsukushī. Very beautiful. All right, man. Well fucking a, we’ve covered a lot. That was great. So nice to see you, buddy.

Kevin Rose: Yeah, good to see you, brother. This was fun.

Tim Ferriss: And anything else you’d like to say? Kevin, you’re going to point people to the new podcast, the resurrected podcast.

Kevin Rose: Yeah. If you head to kevinrose.com, it’ll be at the header there. I’ll make sure it’s up. And I appreciate you all for listening. I promise some wild crazy moments and some fun stuff. So thank you for tuning in.

Tim Ferriss: Kevin is very, very, very, very good at his format, so check it out and for the show notes from this, God knows what kind of mess my team will have to untangle. Tim.blog/podcast. You’ll find links to all sorts of shit. And — 

Kevin Rose: Aesop hand sanitizer for when you shit yourself.

Tim Ferriss: Exactly. Hashtag Aesop disaster pants, sponsorship incoming. All right guys, thanks for tuning in. Talk to you soon. Bye.

Kevin Rose: See you soon.

The Tim Ferriss Show is one of the most popular podcasts in the world with more than 900 million downloads. It has been selected for "Best of Apple Podcasts" three times, it is often the #1 interview podcast across all of Apple Podcasts, and it's been ranked #1 out of 400,000+ podcasts on many occasions. To listen to any of the past episodes for free, check out this page.

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