Dr. Vivek Murthy — Former Surgeon General on Combating COVID-19, Loneliness, and More (#417)

and also we will all need psilocybin mushroom to fight depression and fear. seems like it will be everywhere quite soon.

Firstly, this was a great interview; thank you Tim and Vivek. I couldn’t help but feel that this was a very personal discussion, that captured not only the challenges that are before us as a society, but also how we each can relate to these challenges as individuals. There is a lot to unpack, however, so please forgive me.

Covid19 – An excellent introduction to the issues at hand. The information forthcoming has been generally sporadic, with respect to (1) severity, and (2) how one should act. Increasingly, I am beginning to see this framed as a choice between health and well-being on the one hand, and performance of the economy on the other. Simply put, it is a moral test; are people willing to do the “right” thing, at the cost of their wallet?

Personal responsibility – the above-mentioned challenges rest firmly on us as individuals. Our systems have been developed to value liberty of the individual (i.e. a free society) above all else. The longevity of such a system relies on us to get together (as individuals) and work towards a solution. This means that each person has a responsibility for his own actions, and to his common man. If we fail here, does the experiment fail? (Australia is not doing a good job at this point).

Taking a hard look at ourselves – I think the result of events such as this will involve looking at how we behave, and taking some account of whether this stacks up in the long run. I’d take a punt and suggest there is a lot that doesn’t. This includes but is not limited to; (1) the fragility of an economy built on debt, (2) inability to delay gratification, (3) not prioritizing the things that are “true” in life, (4) the role of the state in liberal democracies (often mislabeled as social democracies). There will be many lessons to learn, and we probably won’t enjoy those lessons as they go against conventional wisdom of the day.

Science – Or rephrased, the limitations of scientific knowledge. Most people go about their lives and do not give a flying f about “science”. While we certainly rely on scientific knowledge to understand the universe a little better, science cannot show you how to live a good life. Ask a man to “take one” for society, and science offers him nothing. This answer lives in a realm outside of what science can capture. And not only that, there are severe limitations on what science can capture. (See: all the folks out there trying to [incorrectly/randomly] model virus performance – they are effectively poking around in the dark.

To be loved and be lovely – In The Theory of Moral Sentiments, Adam Smith suggests that man naturally desires, not only to be loved, but to be lovely. Fewer true words have been written. We all wish to be respected and valued for our contribution and have our conscious satisfied that we are perusing our highest ideal. I think that it is fair to say that there are a few blokes out there scratching their heads as how to accomplish this. If things head south economically, this is going to be a priority (Hint: the answers lie in the past, not the future).

Climate change – I want to knock this right on the head. There is no link between a virus pandemic and climate change. In fact, contrary to common belief, climate change is a complex issue. Consider this. Is there climate change? Can we measure it? Ok. Is there human contribution to climate change? Can we measure it? Can we influence the human impact on climate change? Have we considered the consequences of making sudden changes to factors which contribute to human induced climate change? If yes to all these things, then; (1) what is the cost, (2) is it affordable (by you the individual, as well as “society”), (3) what steps have you as an individual made to reduce your impact to climate change [if nothing, reconsider your ability to reorganize society to align with your cloud-in-the-sky ideology]. Now you’re this far, are you prepared to wear: (1) the deaths/misfortunes that arise from pricing that participants in the market cannot maintain? e.g. little old ladies with no aircon in summer/poor people in society, (2) the reduction in wealth that cannot be generated by developing regions which rely on cheap, reliable (however polluted), power sources that western nations have had access to for generations. Long story short, this is a complex issue; and not appropriate for dropping into your next podcast appearance because it sounds cool.

“We” and its use with respect to corporate entities – the company or organisation you work for is not your family. This is important so I am going to repeat it: Your workplace is not your family. If, as in this podcast, there are suggestions that your workplace should become an extension of your family this is a red flag that you should run. Organisations, for-profit/non-profit/government or otherwise exist for one reason; to benefit its “shareholders”. If you work for Tim’s company, the beneficiary is Tim. If it’s the government, the beneficiary is the people (controlled by a bureaucrat). Neither “shareholder” has your interests at heart – as all people are self-interested (unchanged throughout time). Of course, they want “productivity” – i.e. machines. I do not wish to be misunderstood on this point. Yes, we should be useful to each other and expect fair payment for our services. Yes, it is better to work a job that you like over one that you don’t. Yes, it is better to have respected relationships over ones that are not respected. But even Jesus, the perfect man as such, was shafted by his peers. No, the organisation you work for is not your family. Ladies, take note.

Values – It would seem to me that the most successful societies have shared values. To be honest, I haven’t been involved in enough to confirm this with certainty, but I can confidently state this: “all successful teams share common values”. I am aware that there is fragmentation among our societies, and they are becoming polarised. I’ll give you’re a quick story. My grandparents immigrated to Australia from Germany in search of work, after having a rough time. They took pride in fitting in with the rest, working hard, getting paid, and looking after their family. Nowadays, work isn’t just the means, it’s the ends. And that corporation you’re working for doesn’t just serve its shareholders, it has an opinion on everything and is the idol you must obey if you wish to go to heaven. Is multiculturalism really a thing, or is it just a facade for being multi-raced but thinking the same?

Kindness and compassion – This is it. The secret sauce of humanity. Leaders should aim to strike a balance between performance and compassion. It takes a special type to do this. Unfortunately, anyone with a heart is likely to be corrupted by bureaucratic systems by the time they make it (if in fact they last that long). Small is better, it preserves the personal touch in relationships. It’s not where things are headed, but this may change given current developments.

The funny thing about all the “scientific” talk at the start of the podcast, that the conversation spends most of its time in areas where science is really no use. How to spend a life? What’s important? Does a job title define you? If it did, do you want it to? How does one become a man/woman? (Hint: steal the key from your mothers pillow and find a new king). How does one build themselves to becoming robust to the challenges of life. Do you take responsibility for your own circumstances, or do you rely on some abstract concept of “government”? Personally, I’ve never met “the government”. Wouldn’t even know their name of phone number.

Emotion – It was interesting to hear Vivek speak about emotion. No doubt emotion has its place in life. However, I would suggest that emotion plays too much a part in current discourse. A man (in particular) should be rational in thought, but not so much as to discount emotion, which is there to guide his decision making not command it. And of course, many (but not all) women are somewhat more emotional than the common man. Is there a synergy here? How interesting. One should of course strive to love your neighbour as yourself, but not be misguides by the ebbs and flows of pathos, over and above logos.