Please enjoy this transcript of my (NSFW) interview with Alice Little (@thealicelittle), considered the #1 top-earning legal sex worker in the United States. She is a 4’8″ legal sex worker at Nevada’s world famous Moonlite Bunny Ranch. Transcripts may contain a few typos—with some episodes lasting 2+ hours, it’s difficult to catch some minor errors. Enjoy!
Listen to the interview here or by selecting any of the options below.
DUE TO SOME HEADACHES IN THE PAST, PLEASE NOTE LEGAL CONDITIONS:
Tim Ferriss owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity.
WHAT YOU’RE WELCOME TO DO:
You are welcome to share the below transcript (up to 500 words but not more) in media articles (e.g., The New York Times, LA Times, The Guardian), on your personal website, in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., Medium), and/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided that you include attribution to “The Tim Ferriss Show” and link back to the tim.blog/podcast URL. For the sake of clarity, media outlets with advertising models are permitted to use excerpts from the transcript per the above.
WHAT IS NOT ALLOWED:
No one is authorized to copy any portion of the podcast content or use Tim Ferriss’ name, image or likeness for any commercial purpose or use, including without limitation inclusion in any books, e-books, book summaries or synopses, or on a commercial website or social media site (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) that offers or promotes your or another’s products or services. For the sake of clarity, media outlets are permitted to use photos of Tim Ferriss from the media room on tim.blog or (obviously) license photos of Tim Ferriss from Getty Images, etc.
Tim Ferriss: Well, hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show where it is my job each and every episode to deconstruct world class performers from every possible domain, whether we’re talking about entertainment, military, athletics, business, or, in this case, something a little bit different to tease out the habits maybe, routines maybe, techniques definitely that you can use and apply in your own life.
Now, the subject matter and interviewee in this episode, I suppose, could be introduced, at least should be introduced, I think, with a quote. And that is “Those who are easily shocked should be shocked more often.” That is by Mae West. So, if you find yourself getting a little offended or find yourself recoiling or leaning forward with great interest and enthusiasm, notice that. Notice all of those things. This is an unusual interview. And it came about because I was walking through Dallas Airport, I want to say, at one point, to catch a connecting flight. And I got a text from a friend. And the text said, “Tim!! Hope all is well with you.”
“I have an interesting guess you might consider for the show. Alice Little, top earning courtesan for the Bunny Ranch. Long back story on how I know her, but seven figure earner, super smart who would definitely be out of left field. Let me know if I can make the intro.” Now, for those of you who don’t know, the Bunny Ranch is a legal brothel in Nevada. So, I received this text from Robb Wolf, yes, that’s right, R-O-B-B, last name Wolf, W-O-L-F, robbwolf.com. You can check him out. He is the philosopher king of the paleo world. And I will let Robb explain why he knows Alice some other time.
But I get this text, so, of course, I say, “Yes, yes, yes. Is she a good conversation, 0 to 10, how good at storytelling is she?” And one thing led to another, and then, boom, I was connected with Alice. So, Alice Little on Twitter @thealicelittle is considered the No. 1 top running legal sex worker in the United States.
She is a 4’8, hence Alice Little, legal sex worker at Nevada’s world-famous Moonlight Bunny Ranch. And there are a number of associated brothels within that family, but we won’t get into that. This episode is, in case you haven’t picked it up already, definitely not suitable for work, people. Not work suitable for work, NSFW. I can’t imagine you’d be listening to this on speakers at work, but just in case you have no common sense, there you go. And, in this wide-ranging conversation, we cover quite a lot, including technical sex tips, how Alice puts people at ease, including adult virgins.
And my apologies for the crunching in the background. That is my dog, Molly, chomping on a bully stick, otherwise known as bull pizzle, otherwise known as bull penis, so, maybe very appropriate for this episode.
Okay. Back on track, focus, Ferriss. We talk about BDSM. If you don’t know what that is, we’ll define it. And power play, we talk about threesome dos and don’ts, plus, what she calls the big KO finishing move. Misconceptions about sex workers and the realities. Why, what she calls, the girl friend experience, GFE, is her most popular offering. How she works with couples who want to explore new boundaries, new worlds, and much more. Alice is also a vocal advocate for legal sex workers and the founder of the political movement Hookers for Healthcare. A lot of back story there.
She’s been featured on ABC’s Nightline and is no stranger to the conversation of what is called sex surrogacy that we get into a little bit and seeks to shift America’s perceptions of sex workers and sex work. So, there you have it. You can check her out at thealicelittle.com and elsewhere. I hope you enjoyed this very unusual but very, very practical conversation as much as I did. So, without further ado, here is Alice Little. Alice, welcome to the show.
Alice Little: Hey, how are you? Thanks so much for having me.
Tim Ferriss: I am fantastic. And I’m well caffeinated. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation all day and have wanted to have this conversation, or some form of it, for many years because I want to say 10 years ago, after reading The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, which has sold 100 million plus copies around the world, oddly enough, he ended up appearing in my last book, but that’s a digression. I was in an airport, and I picked up another book of his without really knowing anything about it. And it was called Eleven Minutes, which is very, very different from his other books. And it is a novel about the experiences of a young, Brazilian sex worker and her journey to self-realization through sexual experience.
And it takes her around the world, to Geneva, and all of these different locations and describes her lessons and experiences and hardship, but also peak emotional experiences and so on. And I remember thinking to myself, after finishing that, what a unique life. And, at some point in my life, it would be amazing to sit down and have a conversation with someone in that world. And here we are. So, thank you for making the time.
Alice Little: Absolutely. I’m really excited, looking forward to this. We’re going to have some fun.
Tim Ferriss: And, on the book point, I was looking through these bullets, and I have so many questions for you. But one of the bullets was antiquarian rare book collection, and I thought we would just start there for no good reason other than I’m curious. How did you get into that, first of all? And do you have any particular favorites that come to mind?
Alice Little: Yes. Rare book collecting almost came naturally to me. My family has had a lot of heirlooms and antiques. And a number of those include older, familiar Bibles. That just kind of sparked my interest from a young age. And then, as I’ve grown, my interests have diversified. And I started looking into other types of publications that existed within that time period. I’ve always been attracted to things like leather bound books and the history of a book that is aged and has had ownership that there might be, perhaps, pencil marks in there or notes from the person who first owned it kind of putting their thumbprint on that piece of history. And so, I kind of think of those books as not just a piece of historical literature but also a piece of historical evidence, often times, as to how it relates to a particular person.
Tim Ferriss: Right. No, absolutely. That’s one of my favorite things about used books is, in some cases, looking at the highlights and discovering what someone else thought was important in those pages. And you mentioned your family. You were born in Dublin, is that correct?
Alice Little: Yes, just outside of Dublin proper.
Tim Ferriss: All right. Which might, partially, at least, explain the natural red hair for which you’re known, among other things. And you moved to the US, as I understand it, around age 5.
Alice Little: Mm-hmm.
Tim Ferriss: And how did you, ultimately, then, find your way to sex work? Do you remember your first exposure or how that came to be? I would love to know the story, which I don’t know. And I had both myself and someone else trying to do background research. And part of what made me even more excited to have the conversation is there’s not a whole lot. There’s a little bit, but there’s not much. So, I feel like this is very fresh, at least for me. So, how did you find your way to sex work? How did that happen?
Alice Little: Growing up, I had always been a very naturally curious child. I would be the kid that asked one too many questions, that had a little bit too much to say, that always wanted to know more. Whatever it was that I wasn’t supposed to know at that age, that’s what I was most interested in. For example, I remember being a fourth grader and trying to check out the Diary of Anne Frank and being told it was grossly inappropriate and going so far as to have my parents take it to the school board and petition for me to be allowed to read this book. So, as far as being in, I guess, connection to my body and my sexuality, as I progressed in my years, it came very naturally to me to be sexually inquisitive.
I asked questions such as why is the model monogamy? Why are we limiting ourselves to man and wife? What about other options? What other paradigms are there? What more is there to discover and learn from this? And that led me to discovering the Cat House series, which featured the Moonlight Bunny Ranch on HBO.
That aired for a number of years. It was incredibly impactful. And it really kind of was the first sexual renaissance, at least in modern society, that we have had. I watched that show growing up, and I just admired the free sexual attitude that they had and the energy that they had.
Tim Ferriss: Were there any particular episodes or scenes or anything like that that stuck in your mind, in particular? And where were you when you were watching this? Where were you living?
Alice Little: Oh, goodness. I was, actually, living on Long Island, New York, at the time. And it would be way, way late at night, way past my bedtime.
Tim Ferriss: Nothing against Long Island. I grew up in Long Island. Which part of Long Island?
Alice Little: Oh, my gosh? Are you serious? I grew up in Nassau County.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah. I was a Suffolk by myself. But I spent a lot of time in Nassau as well. All right Strong Island reunion. Unexpected, I like it. So, you’re watching this series. Are there any particular moments or scenes or characters that really stuck out to you?
Alice Little: Air Force Amy was definitely one of the most prominently featured women on the show. And she captured me. Everything from the way that she carried herself to the language she used when talking about her job and the relationships that she had with clients. And she was willing to show things that many people, often times, didn’t consider such as couples being at the ranch or BDSM being an option. She’s even had an episode specifically showing pony play before, which is when somebody is hooked up to a cart and actually pulls somebody around acting as if they are a human pony.
Tim Ferriss: I was going to ask. I wasn’t sure what variety of pony play we were talking about.
Alice Little: It’s pretty fantastic stuff. I just really loved that free ability to explore and innovate in this sexual way. And it really spoke to me. I was, at the time, a BDSM educator and still am to this day. I travel around the country. I present at all sorts of different events and panels. I decided to take the next step.
Tim Ferriss: Sorry to interrupt, but can you define for people, and I think we’ll probably stop a few times in this conversation to do this, BDSM? Having lived in the Bay Area, I’ve since moved, but in the Bay Area for 17 years and having taken tours of the Armory and so on, I am familiar with BDSM or what it is, at least.
Alice Little: Hey, I’ve taught classes there before.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. It’s a wild spot. And, for those people wondering, you can look it up, the Armory. They buy 50-gallon drums of lubrication, at a time, which, apparently, you can get on Amazon Prime, which I can’t imagine is a net gain for Amazon. But I’m going off the rails. So, BDSM, what is BDSM?
Alice Little: There are multiple different ways to define BDSM. But, simply put, it’s an acronym that can stand for several different things. Anything from bondage, discipline, sadism, masochism to sometimes it’s been used to describe say bondage, discipline, dominance, and submission. So, the exact wordage and the exact verbiage changes depending on the circles. There’s not 100 percent agreement as to which letter has which particular meaning. But, generally speaking, it’s divided up into BD for bondage and discipline, DS for dominance and submission, and SM for sadism and masochism.
Tim Ferriss: What, of all of those, I think many of those are somewhat self-evident or people can envision what they mean. What is discipline? What does that mean?
Alice Little: Discipline, in the contest of BDSM, is the exchange of a physical or emotional control over someone where you’re either say spanking them or perhaps going so far as to verbally chastise them, if that’s the greed upon dynamic. It’s set up to kind of recreate that structure often found within the military where there’s this chain of command and this understanding of who reports to who. Within the BDSM culture, sometimes, that discipline will enter into a submissive/dominant relationship where that’s used in combination with their relationship.
Tim Ferriss: And it makes me think of, and I don’t think this quote applies everywhere, but I want to say Mae West, but Mae West is kind of like the female version of Mark Twain. You can kind of attribute any quote to her. So, I may be getting the attribution wrong. But the quote was –
Alice Little: I don’t think she would mind.
Tim Ferriss: I don’t think she’d mind either. The quote was something along the lines of everything in life is about sex, except for sex. Sex is about power. And, at least in the BDSM world, I imagine that would have some application. But the BDSM, then, it sounds like, based on what you said, your fascination with that or even teaching that predated your work as a sex worker, is that right?
Alice Little: Yes. I celebrated by 18th birthday by going into a dungeon space in New York City for the first time and finally getting to interact with this community that I had been waiting to for a number of years. My interest in BDSM started very organically in high school. Things like tying up my first girlfriend with rope and kind of enjoying that. And it led me to discover the BDSM community. From there, I was just chomping at the bit to get that education and that knowledge.
Tim Ferriss: And when did the – or how, really, did the sex work enter the picture?
Alice Little: There’s a very fine line between BDSM and sex work in the sense that both are very sexually charged activities. It was very comfortable and easy almost for me to make the jump from one to the other. It was a very conscious decision where I sat down one day and said to myself, “Where do I see myself going within the next year? Where do I see myself going the year after that? What about five years?” And when I really sat and thought about it, I saw myself entering a profession that allowed me to connect with people on an intimate level more so than what society, generally, allows for.
In the past, I’ve worked as a massage therapist. So, I got to develop that hands on relationship with the clientele. But it kind of just fell short of that deep, personal intimacy that I was looking forward to. I’ve always felt that life is about enrichment, both for our own betterment as well as the betterment of those around us. And, for me, sex work ended up being the perfect channel to do that.
Tim Ferriss: Now, you’ve done a number of other things. You mentioned massage therapist. And please correct me if I’m wrong because, of course, everyone should be cautious about believing everything they read on the internet. But I have emergency medical technician, jockey at race tracks, those are other things that you tried, correct?
Alice Little: Oh, yes. I have a tried a little bit of everything under the sun trying to find something that just felt right. I wanted to find a job where not only did I feel comfortable with what I was doing, but I also felt a more meaningful calling than it just being a job. But it actually had a deeper purpose to it that kind of relates back to the book you mentioned, 11 Minutes, where she goes through the sexual journey and kind of finds herself. It is true for many of us sex workers that message of self discovery and sexual freedom and that ability to explore those parts of ourselves and share them with are formerly strangers is incredible.
Tim Ferriss: What was your first, or what you would consider your first, gig, I suppose? I’m going to stumble a little bit because I’m not sure which labels or words to use. So, if I offend, please forgive. But what was your first, I guess, client engagement as a sex worker? Do you remember your first experience? And can you describe it for us, or one of the first?
Alice Little: I remember it very, very crystal clear. The Bunny Ranch maintains a set of forums online, which allows for a greater depth of communication and intimacy before we even meet face to face. It allows the ladies, like myself, to post photos, different interests, kind of share about us on that humanistic level rather than just that appearance level. I had posted about a particular interest I had in one of the specialty rooms at the Ranch. I simply said, hey, it’s something I’m really looking forward to trying. I’d love somebody to come out and spend that time with me. And within the week, I had an email, and it was my first appointment, a gentleman called –
Tim Ferriss: I’m sorry. What was the room? Maybe you’ll get to it, but I’m just so curious.
Alice Little: It is this set up where it’s an indoor jacuzzi with an attached suite next to it. This way, you can come and go between the jacuzzi and the bed as comfortably as you so please.
Tim Ferriss: Got it. Please continue. Sorry. So, you received an email from a client.
Alice Little: Yeah. And they’re like I love this idea you have. I’m interested. Let’s do it. So, of course, I have all of the nerves and anxiety that comes with a first appointment in a new industry. And everything ended up going as smooth as clock work.
It was just so much simpler than my mind made it out to be. I tend to over think and over analyze things. And so, I, naturally, always prepare for the worst in any scenario. What happens if I make a mistake? What if we don’t connect? What if something happens and the jacuzzi breaks? I try to always plan for such contingencies. And, at the end of the day, the reality was the intimacy was very natural and comfortable. And, to this day, that client is still one of my regulars that I get to see and connect with fairly often.
Tim Ferriss: All right. So, you mentioned you were nervous, highly analytical by nature, and then, it went like clockwork. What is the format of one of those first encounters? And what I mean by that is I’ve read that, and I, actually, don’t know where this term comes in, but I’ve read about negotiations. So, it seems like you get paired with a big sister. And then, there’s a sit down with the client. Is there a negotiation, or did I misread that? And what role does the big sister play or the more experienced woman?
Alice Little: Well, to start with, I’d kind of like to describe what it’s like when you come into the Ranch because that kind of helps set the stage for what an experience there is like.
Tim Ferriss: Sure, perfect.
Alice Little: Either somebody would set an appointment with a particular lady, or they would come in and request a line up. If you choose to request a line up, all of the available ladies will come out to the parlor. We stand in a line, introduce ourselves, and, after we introduce ourselves, you’re free to walk up to the lady of your choice, take her by the hand, and go for a tour of the property. The Bunny Ranch is an incredibly historic property. It’s been there since the 1950’s. It’s beautiful and has been many times remodeled, revamped, and renovated. So, it really is a top of the line, gorgeous facility. So, we like to kind of showcase that in addition to some of the different specialty rooms, suites, and offerings that we happen to have at the Ranch.
After the tour, the guest and the lady then go back to that lady’s room where they will then sit and have a negotiation. If the lady is new, for the first couple of times, they’ll introduce the big sister or a mentor who is an older, more experienced lady that’s been there for a little bit to kind of help you through those first couple of times until you start to feel comfortable and more confident. During the negotiation, that’s where we kind of have a conversation. I hate to use the word negotiation because it feels very business. I like to think of it more like having a conversation with a friend.
It’s something that happens very organically. It gives me the opportunity to get to know who you are on that personal level and also kind of let you know a little bit about myself. When it comes to intimacy and attraction, it’s so much more than just that skin level.
It, certainly, goes deeper. So, I really like to take that time during that first few moments to really get to know who somebody is as a person beyond their at a brothel, they’re interested in services. I like to take a little bit longer than most, in that particular regard. During the negotiation, we’ll also talk about what particular activities we’re interested in, what sorts of fantasies they may have, what sort of special requests that they would have. And, from there, we kind of formulate what our time together is going to look and feel like. How long would we like to spend together? Would we like to stay in my room, or are we interested in one of those specialty suites I mentioned earlier?
Is there a particular activity that they want to try? Or is there a second lady they would like to involve in the encounter? That’s kind of where we get to shape and figure out what we’re going to do. And, after that point, you would then to go the office. They handle all of the financial transactions very discretely.
The ladies don’t, actually, have any interaction with the clients’ personal information for their protection. All of that is handled by the cashier. We then get a set of sheets, a couple of towels, perhaps a bottle of champagne for fun and head back to my room or the suite, and we’re off on an adventure.
Tim Ferriss: So, I want to dig into a few follow up questions. So, you sit down, and I think, in my mind, I’m envisioning – I’ve only seen the first installment of the film Fifty Shades of Gray where they’re having this conversation about what are the go and no go rules, I suppose, which, among my friends who do BDSM, of course, is very, or on some level, seems very familiar. What are some of the questions that you like to ask or the most important questions that you ask?
Alice Little: I tend to work with a very wide variety of people. And, more often than not, I work with people that I’ve had the opportunity to communicate with via email. That’s given me the opportunity to kind of get to know them and their personality a little bit. So, I’m able to better adjust the types of questions I ask. For example, if I have a couple that has never had a third person involved in any sort of sexual encounter, the very first thing I’m going to ask is what are you comfortable with, what are you not comfortable with and allow them to start setting their own particular boundaries because, with a couple, you certainly don’t want to violate any sort of pre-existing communication agreements that they have made.
And so, I like to pay honor almost to their relationship and kind of allow them to dictate, in a way, to me where they see me fitting into the puzzle of their pre-existing connection versus –
Tim Ferriss: Sorry. Not to interrupt, but I’ll probably interrupt a lot. Let’s say a couple comes to you, and, as you noted, perhaps they’ve never had this experience. And so, you ask them what they’re comfortable with, and they’re not sure. And they ask you what would you suggest as guidelines, or how should we do this? We’ve never done this before. We’re not sure what would make us comfortable or uncomfortable. What types of guidelines might you offer them or suggestions?
Alice Little: The very first thing that I like to start with is a very simple and really fun getting to know you exercise, of course, taken to a little bit more of an adult level. I find that, here, we often –
Tim Ferriss: And this is an adult show, so, we can get into the details. It’s okay.
Alice Little: Oh, fantastic. Here we go. Things are going to get real interesting.
Tim Ferriss: For those parents in the car with their kids right now, I’d recommend ear muffs or having a pause break for a birds and the bees conversation. And we’re back. So, please continue. So, people are looking for suggestions from you, as a couple. What do you do? And you mentioned an exercise.
Alice Little: Yes. The very first thing I like to start with is a foreplay exercise. Women take significantly longer to become aroused than men. That’s a biological fact. And, often times, in sexual encounters, there’s not enough of that warm up period, especially during a get to know you, that first encounter with somebody that time needs to be even more so explored and even more so embraced. And so, I like to simply start by the two of us, either myself and the wife or myself and the husband, undressing one of the partners very, very slowly and sensually while they have their eyes closed. This does a couple of different things.
First, when you close your eyes during any sort of intimate encounter, it’s going to heighten all of your other senses. Your sense of smell becomes significantly sharper where you’re able to smell a hint of perfume or that whiff of cologne. When you close your eyes, you feel every single touch of the fingertip, the pressure of the nail sliding over your back or over your partners’ nipples. It’s incredibly arousing.
And just that one simple thing adds a certain depth and really lets you sink in to what’s happening and appreciate every single movement. I kind of like to think of sex as a dance, in a way. It’s working with a partner or partners. You’re coordinating your movements and your energy. Your breathing, often times, will become subconsciously synchronized. And you just naturally fall into this flow where you’re exploring, kissing, touching, and just embracing and letting things really naturally go with the flow and letting your mind kind of take over instinctually rather than pre-programming and deciding, first, I shall remove the top. Then, I shall slowly remove this bra, but with my teeth. That removes all of the sexual spontaneity out of it. There has to be that certain organic element to it. Otherwise, you’re looking at a porn not a true encounter.
Tim Ferriss: Okay. So, you slowly undress one of the partners. Then, what happens?
Alice Little: Then, we go to each of the other two in turn, either myself or the husband first, whichever things just happen to come naturally. The same process repeated over again. And, at this point, I’m going to start encouraging them to not just explore each other’s bodies but also explore their body or also explore my body as well. So, I might take his hand and kiss his fingertips and, literally, holding his hand, trace it down my neck and press it onto my breast so, this way, he feels comfortable. And that touch barrier has been breached.
Once that’s happened, I have found that, naturally, people settle in a little bit more, and they start to give themselves permission to enjoy that encounter and really, oh, that’s really happening now. Oh, I can do these things. I do have the power of the sexual expression and freedom here.
Tim Ferriss: So, in that circumstance, when you look over your experiences with couples, this might sound funny, but what do the smarter guys do, and what do the not so smart guys do? And the reason I ask is I recall a conversation I had with a dear friend of mine who, for a period of time, he’s happily married with kids now and has voluntarily chosen monogamy, but back in his sort of peak athletic years, he was a master of threesomes. And really just seemed to have near magical powers.
And he said to me, at one point, he observed that, if you want to have threesomes with say a girlfriend or a wife, Rule No. 1 is you do not penetrate the other woman on the first date. And he said, “If you do that, you can have many, many, many threesomes.”
“But if you penetrate the other woman, i.e., not your girlfriend, on that first encounter, you could completely shut her down, meaning your girlfriend. And then, you’ve just ruined your opportunity to have an ongoing, enjoyable experience as a couple. So, I don’t know if that’s true. It sounds like it’s plausible. But what are certain things that smart guys do versus not so smart guys or experienced guys in that type of circumstance?
Alice Little: So, the smart guys communicate. They’re very clear with their significant other as to what their desire is, what kind of fantasies they want to see, and what kind of an experience they want to have. They also have to be willing to wait until their partner is comfortable and ready to have that experience. Trying to manipulate your partner into a sexual encounter is the absolute worst thing that you could do. And that is, typically, the first thing that I see couples do when they’re doing it the wrong way.
If the guy is doing it for very selfish reasons where he doesn’t really care if his wife is into it, this is all about him, those guys, they’re not being respectful of the woman’s right over her own body let alone their agreed upon relationship. So, I would say that the very, very first thing is communication followed by consent.
Tim Ferriss: And how do you help to break the ice? Let’s say you’ve removed the clothing, you’ve traced someone’s hand, maybe both, let’s just assume for the time being, man and a woman, so, both of their hands on your bodies. If they’re still not sure what to do, what is a good next move, if you’re directing things?
Alice Little: If I’m kind of playing ring leader, as it was, and we’re still reaching this point where we’re a little bit tentative, and that intimacy hasn’t quite clicked into place, the next thing I’ll often go ahead is move onto what is called inedible body massage.
This is where you use body safe products that also are either flavored and scented, for example, a honey massage lotion. And then, we’ll go ahead and lay one or both of the partners down and slowly use that and warm them up that way, again, keeping with that touch, keeping with that sensory input, and really allowing everyone to participate. This isn’t a scenario where one partner is on the other side of the bed. This is a scenario where both myself and the wife may be massaging the husband, or they might be massaging me. Either which way, it just allows for that continuation and natural flow of energy and chemistry.
Tim Ferriss: What are other things that you do in those circumstances to make the woman comfortable? Are there any other particular tricks of the trade or phrases or questions or guidelines that you use?
Alice Little: This is going to be an interesting one, but since this is an adult show, one of the things I like to do to help make the woman relax a little bit more is I like to make her have an orgasm. This can either be through digital stimulation with my fingers or perhaps with a sex toy, perhaps with the assistance of her partner playing with her nipples or kissing her. Allowing the woman to go ahead and have that first orgasm in that threesome, it makes her feel secure that she’s not going to be a less than partner. Many women have this concern about this comparison between themselves and the other woman.
I think it’s one of the reasons why I have so many couples is because being a 4’8 petite red head, there’s not a lot of women who can look at themselves and feel compared to me. The body type, the height, it’s such a complete night and day difference that they feel comfortable sharing their significant other with me because they don’t see me as a threat to their relationship.
And then, when we go ahead and give that woman the first orgasm, it’s solidifying her place within that sexual dynamic saying, yes, your feelings, your sexual experience is absolutely important, and it’s going to be a part of this. Women are lucky. We get to cum more than once. And so, why not start things off with a bang.
Tim Ferriss: Why not, indeed. What are some of your best practices for helping a woman to orgasm? Do you have any favorite sex toys? Many women have difficulty orgasming or maybe coming into an experience perhaps not, with your clients, I don’t know, but inorgasmic. They haven’t experienced that before. What are some of the approaches or technical tips or toys that you use that you’ve found to be particularly helpful?
Alice Little: Sure thing. I happen to work with both couples as well as single women many times over this particular problem. And believe it or not, it’s a societally endemic problem where the majority of women have trouble reaching climax either single by themselves or with a partner. So, I think talking about something like this is really important. Personally, I always love to suggest the simplest toy, which is a wall plug in Hitachi Magic Wand.
Tim Ferriss: Such a great device, great device.
Alice Little: It is the best. And as far as sex safety goes between partners, always make sure you’re putting a condom over the top of the Hitachi because we want to play safe with our toys. So, when we’re going ahead and using the Hitachi, that is absolutely fantastic for direct clitoral stimulation. You can go ahead and increase or decrease the intensity by pushing down harder or softer.
And if that still isn’t quite doing it, the second thing I like to do is a simple one or two finger insertion. Nothing too much more than that, especially on the first orgasm, because it’s kind of a warm up. We’re like diesel engines. It takes us a moment to get warmed up, but once we’re there, we’re going to stay purring for a while.
Tim Ferriss: Mm-hmm. And so, you’re doing the one or two finger insertion along with the Hitachi Magic Wand?
Alice Little: Yeah. Just same, slow, repetitive motion in and out. And the whole thing that a lot of guys make the mistake on when trying to help their partner climax is variation. In my experience, most women actually prefer a more rhythmic approach into it, a simple one, two, one, two, in, out, in, out. It tends to work a lot better than one, two, one, two, one, two, in, out, in, out.
Tim Ferriss: Got it.
Alice Little: It’s very difficult for a woman to achieve climax that way. And that’s just a biological difference between men and women. I’ve noticed that men tend to like variation when pleasuring themselves or receiving a hand job from a woman. They like the difference in strokes, length, and pressure. Whereas women are pretty consistent about what we like. We like to do what we do and stick with that. So, it’s okay if you’re doing the same thing over and over again. If it’s working, trust me, you’ll know.
Tim Ferriss: So, a couple of notes on the Hitachi Magic Wand for people. A) Is you can certainly find it at just about any sex shop. You can, certainly, but it also online, Amazon, etc. And it can serve double duty for those of you who might have read Tools of Titans for relaxing hypertonic or spasmed muscles. For instance, in the forearms, in the forearm flexors and so on, if you have really tight forearms.
Gymnasts, in fact, former national team men’s coach, Coach Sommer, recommended the Hitachi Magic Wand but not for sex, for relieving muscle tightness. So, if you need that excuse, guys, you can grab one of those, and then, your girlfriend will steal it from you. But that’s one. Do you use the high or the low setting most often?
Alice Little: I’m kind of a low setting girl. I kind of just prefer that lower intensity level. And then, I kind of will save that higher mode for more of the very end of the session, if we really want to ramp things up. I guess the best way to describe it is that the Hitachi has two settings, strong and crawling up the wall strong.
Tim Ferriss: And how long is, let’s just say in the case of the couple, a minimum or an ideal length of session? How much time do you have?
Alice Little: It completely varies from couple to couple. Generally speaking, for somebody’s first encounter, I like to go ahead and include something called an out date. What an out date is is that it actually allows us to leave the brothel and then travel anywhere we would like in Nevada. So, perhaps we all go out for lunch first. This way, we get to have some conversation, get to have a little bit of that mental stimulating foreplay, not just the physical stimulating foreplay. Then, after lunch, we’ll head back to the Ranch and, from there, go ahead and kind of enjoy our sexual festivities.
Couples that are on say a traveling time schedule where they only have a couple of hours, it’s absolutely okay to spend just two hours with somebody or even just a single hour with someone. But, generally speaking, for couples, I recommend going ahead and investing in a slightly more elaborate experience, especially for their first time because that attitude and that energy is going to make a huge difference in regard to what you experience here at the Ranch with me.
That little bit of extra connection time of just going and having a simple meal with someone, it gives all of the stress a moment to leave your body. It allows all of your anxiety to kind of go away and dissipate. And by the time we make it back to the bedroom, you’ve already relaxed. The butterflies have calmed down, and you feel a little bit more comfortable with where things are going next.
Tim Ferriss: What are some of the most requested activities? You mentioned activities a few times. If you were looking at the pie chart of requests that you’ve received, what are the most often requested activities?
Alice Little: I would say that there are two different things that would kind of fall into that pie chart. It would probably be more accurate to go ahead and label it as both experiences and specific activity requests. And, sometimes, those things go hand in hand or they go separately.
Probably my most requested experience is something called the girlfriend experience. It’s where we take things to that next level of intimacy. And, often times, it’s argued it can even border on sexual surrogacy where you’re taking things that next step further. That’s where we’re going out to eat together. We may choose to go to a concert together. We’re going to keep in touch in communication between our time together via text or email or perhaps phone calls. It allows for that depth and that building of relationship that really transcends beyond just a single, standalone session.
Absolutely, the majority of my couples and the majority of my clients, in general, tend to fall into that more girlfriend experience category. The second most requested experience is kink or BDSM and fetish activities. This may be, in the example of a couple, a couple that is interested in bondage and discipline where I might teach the husband the safe way to use rope to tie up his wife and then, explore how to use floggers and sex toys to give her that sexual release.
Whereas, say, with a single male, he may be interested in having me dominate him instead. And he wants to explore his submissive side and his submissive energy. So, I’d say that would probably be the most second requested category I have. And the third would probably be two girl encounters. Having a threesome is on almost every single guy’s bucket list, and there’s no better place in the world than the Bunny Ranch to get to have that encounter. We’re professionals. We’ll take care of you the right way.
Tim Ferriss: So, those sound like the experiences. If we were getting into specifics, are there any –
Alice Little: As in more so the specific sex acts themselves?
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, within any of those buckets. I’m just so curious to know because I remember having a conversation, living in San Francisco for a long time, getting to know people who are very sex positive and support sex workers.
And one of them said, for instance, that they found oral sex, blow jobs, to be very, very commonly requested because a lot of men are not given that by their primary partner. And maybe their primary partner just doesn’t enjoy that for whatever reason. But I don’t know if that’s accurate, since I’m not a sex worker myself. So, what are some of the most frequently requested activities or acts?
Alice Little: I think this one may be more specific to me than necessarily the experience of other ladies. But, very frequently, I have men coming to me that want to have sex whole standing up because I’m so petite. I only weight 85 pounds. You can, literally, pick me up and have sex while standing in a variety of different positions. I also happen to be extremely flexible, so, I get a lot of requests for Kamasutra positions or perhaps sexually creative positions where the man is standing and the woman is in doggy position at the end of the bed.
Or perhaps we’re having sex using a chair. Or, in the case of someone with a disability, perhaps we’re having sex using their wheelchair as sex furniture. All of those things often are request. Oral sex, also a huge, huge request. It feels great. A lot of guys enjoy that sensation because, like you had mentioned earlier, it truly is a rarity. And for them, it’s a treat. As far as specific sex position goes, women, you have got to start riding your men. They really like it when a girl is on top and is willing to take control. Often times, in modern society, we still see this paradigm of man on top, woman below.
This standard missionary position being the one and only position that men are getting to experience with any sort of frequency. So, a variety of positions are often requested from cowgirl to reverse cowgirl, doggy style, and everything in between.
Tim Ferriss: You mentioned, and I’m sure we’ll come back to a lot of different details, but you mentioned, in passing, sex surrogacy. And I was hoping you could just take a minute and define what that is.
Alice Little: Oh, absolutely. Sex surrogacy is kind of an interesting thing because the definition tends to be personal. With that being said, a universal way of looking at sex surrogacy in the most simplest of forms is that rather than entering a traditional relationship with say the average woman that you would meet at a bar, you are, instead, choosing to enter into a longer based relationship, in this case, with a sex worker and kind of replacing the traditional girlfriend or wife with courtesan, escort, companion.
You’re filling that role with something other than what is a societal norm. It’s very interesting though because, when you think about it, didn’t the king of England have multiple ladies in waiting. Didn’t he have multiple that he was having affairs with and having sex with? And that’s really true for a lot of history when you look back that having this secondary person or, often times, in the case of sex surrogacy, this primary person being the person who is taking care of your sexual needs and desires. It certainly deviates from what we would expect out of society.
Tim Ferriss: And now, does this combine then, in some cases, or is it separate from because this is something else that I wrote down, consensual non monogamy, which it seems like you’re an advocate for, or at least know quite a bit about? Are there particular, and I know this is a blended question, but do you have guidelines for people who are interested in exploring consensual non monogamy?
Alice Little: Absolutely. Consensual non monogamy, first off, is defined as your partner knowingly allowing you to go ahead and have sex with another person. In this particular case, with a sex worker. This has a couple of unique advantages over any other kind of consensual non monogamy because, first off, you know that we’re professional. You know that I’m not seeking to steal your husband and try to marry him. That could be the furthest thing from the case. And, second, often times, there’s a medical reason as to why people are interested in consensual and non-monogamy. For example, the wife may have ovarian cancer and is unable to have sex because of the simple medical reason that it’s not feasible, at that time.
She may go ahead and acknowledge that her sexual needs and wants and desires, she’s not able to take care of those for her husband, at that time. I’m a very firm believer that sex is a need not just a want. It’s been shown time and time again. It has a positive psychological effect on someone. And it absolutely has positive effects in the overall experience of life. So, by going ahead and allowing her significant other to see the sex worker, she is acknowledging not just his sexual needs but also doing so in the most ethical way possible. You’re paying simply for a service, which I am simply providing.
I’m taking care of a need that, at that particular time, you’re not able to fulfill. The wife is able to have a say over that because it’s consensual. She’s able to dictate these are the specific sex acts that I am comfortable with. Or, instead, say I am comfortable with everything but these particular acts.
And then, she’s allowed to then contribute her input. So, as far as guidelines go, for someone that was interested in something like that, we have to go back to the same No. 1 I said earlier. Communication and the willingness to have that communication followed by No. 2, consent. If you can get those two bullet points checked off, then, you’re well on your way to going ahead and entering this type of dynamic.
Tim Ferriss: Now, you mentioned, before I completely derailed the train of thought, one example of type of client. And you mentioned couples. My understanding is that you also have worked with a fair number of adult virgins. Is that accurate?
Alice Little: Yes.
Tim Ferriss: Can you explain – just walk us through what that experience is like? How do you take someone, presumably male, although that may not always be the case, and how do you make them comfortable? How do you walk them through that experience?
Alice Little: The very, very first thing, and I keep coming back to the same No. 1 here, it seems to be very prevalent throughout my work is the very first thing is that communication aspect of getting to know them as a human before getting to know them as a sexual human. I want to find out what someone’s hobbies and interests are. I’d love to see a photo of someone’s dog or hear about a funny story from when they grew up. That allows us to connect, first, on that friend level where we have that openness. At that point, I’m able to them ask questions such as what kind of sexual experiences have you had or what kind of sexual experiences have you not had. And, many times, adult virgins have never been on a date. They’ve never had a first kiss. They’ve, often times, never proceeded past first or second base.
So, in their heads, they’re really not just an adult virgin, but they’re a virgin to the whole dating experience. In American, unfortunately, society favors women when it comes to sex and relationships where women are sought after by men, but men aren’t, often times, as sought after by women. Therefore, we have a large sector of the population, which is male and also a virgin in their 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, and up. They’ve simply either never had the time to have the encounter, the opportunity has never presented itself, they’ve never specifically sought out something like that. Or perhaps, they are anxious.
Perhaps they haven’t had the ability to do so because they feel limited by a disability. For example, a large number of the adult virgins I work with fall on the autism spectrum. And for me, it’s understanding who someone is as a person and then understanding who they want to be as a sexual person and kind of developing our own customized date experience that allows them to experience the things that they are missing.
Tim Ferriss: So, this is fascinating. With someone who say has autism, and there is, of course, an entire spectrum depending on the severity of symptoms or the way it’s been diagnosed and so on, but that would seem to also challenge maybe, in some ways, the tool that you keep referring to, which is communication and asking the right questions and so on. So, what are some of the things you’ve learned after you’ve say heard a story or two, looked at a photo of a dog, had a little bit of time to get to know them as a person?
Now, it’s time to progress to maybe Phase 2 where you started to get to not only know them but explore them as a physical human being, a sexual human being. What are some of the things that you do to facilitate that?
I like to communicate on several different levels. Communication isn’t just verbal. A lot of our communication as humans comes from that more subtle either facial features, body posturing, how we lean in or lean away from something. And so, when I’m working with somebody physically hands on, I’m also trying to read some of their body language and look for the social cues that someone is calming down, and their respiratory rate is relaxed. Or, instead, they’re leaning into an embrace rather than hesitant and pulling away and perhaps more nervous.
For me, I never proceed to the next step or the next level of intimacy until we have reached that comfort barrier, and then, we’re both ready to progress forward. A number of my clients are war vets. And they left for the military and completely lost the ability to have that normal first relationship.
Now that they’re getting to explore it for the first time, they’re dealing with a number of different things, some of which have PTSD, some of which have hearing loss from explosives. And so, I’d have to be willing to communicate on whatever language basis, either verbally or non-verbally, that they’re communicating in. So, I have to have a certain level of flexibility when working with adult virgins because you really want to cater that experience and really create something that’s going to be special, memorable, and personable because this is a unique experience for them. There will never be another first other than this one thing. So, the way I look at it, I want to make that first time be everything they ever dreamed, hoped, and desired.
Tim Ferriss: I’d like to get into some specifics related to that. So, I remember when I lost my virginity. And I was, I suppose, fortunate to be pretty young, at the time. But I was a nervous wreck. I think that many guys are.
So, let’s say that you’re sitting down with someone who is, very understandably, nervous on some or many different levels. What are some of the specific things that you’ve done or questions you’ve asked or things that you’ve said to make them less nervous, to make them more comfortable? I know it depends on the person, but what are some specific examples that you can give of anything that you’ve done across clients to help them to melt into the moment so that they can be less preoccupied and nervous?
Alice Little: Absolutely. I think that happens on multiple different levels. The first thing I do is I like to create a certain ambiance in my room. When we walk in, I like to create a visual change by going ahead and lowering the lights. And I put on a little bit of relaxing background music. This way, the rest of the world and the rest of the brothel and the rest of everything has the opportunity to kind of melt away for a moment. It’s creating a space specifically for this encounter and kind of setting the stage. That helps with that first step of visual relaxation. Then, I like –
Tim Ferriss: Do you have any favorite go to background music? Do you have any particular background music that you like?
Alice Little: I love Enya. Huge fan of Enya. It’s soft. It’s melodic. It’s relaxing. It’s very easy to take that to a romantic place, and it’s not so dominating lyrically that it would inhibit conversation and communication. It just flows very calmly and naturally in the background. Another one I really enjoy is Lindsay Sterling’s violin pieces. Those can be a lot of fun, if you want something a little bit more upbeat and energetic, that’s a lot of fund to listen to. And then, the genre of chill step is the third music choice I tend to go to. It tends to have a little bit more of a beat and a rhythm to it and kind of helps set more of that sexual tempo.
Tim Ferriss: Love it. All right. Very helpful. Okay. Please continue. So, you’ve set the room tone, so to speak. What then?
Alice Little: Well, go ahead and assume that the person I’m working with here is a typical male virgin who has never even so much as kissed a woman before. And this is something I see almost every single week. So, the very first thing that we need to do is establish a physical connection. This starts, often times, with hand holding and interlacing of the fingers, playing with the fingertips, and encouraging them to reciprocate that same motion, touching my fingertips, stroking my hand. From there, that progresses to perhaps gentle kisses across the neck and shoulder region.
Something that is a little bit less intimate than lips on lips contact for that first time, kind of allowing someone to experience what that sensation is like because just stop for a moment and imagine that you’ve never kissed a woman before.
You have no idea what that sensation is going to be like on your lips. Is there a taste to the skin? How does the smell of her perfume or the shampoo she used affect your experience? By slowing things down and really, really exploring those first few steps of intimacy, it allows you to explore the depth of it and really appreciate that act for what it is, foreplay. Going ahead and just having very, very nontraditional foreplay such as gentle shoulder rubbing, using my fingers to run them through someone’s hair, or tracing my fingertip over the outer edge of their ear, maybe running my fingers along the lower edge of their jaw.
Those little acts of touching connection communicate nonverbally that 1) it’s okay to touch me, too; and 2) this is going to be a relaxing experience. I’m not going to try to undress someone, have them on the bed on their back, and try to hop on top of them and ride them until they orgasm.
That’s not good. That would be the exact opposite of the kind of experience I want to create for my male virgins. I want them to really appreciate that sexual connection. Another thing that’s worth mentioning here, too, and this is a very interesting thing that, more frequently than not, male virgins are not able to reach orgasm during their first sexual experience because of nerves and anxiety. It often does affect performance. And that is a very normal, biological occurrence. It’s not something to be ashamed of or feel as if that ruins your experience.
So, I also like to set up the intention that the goal is to explore each other sexually. And if we manage to achieve orgasm during that process, all the better. But I don’t like to place an emphasis on we’re going until you orgasm because sex is so much more than the big finish.
Sex is a journey. It’s an adventure. It’s not just sex, penis, and vagina. It’s so much more than that. And so, I’d say, overall, from my virgins, to make them feel comfortable is I let them know that it’s not just sex. It’s the touches, it’s the kisses. It’s their first kiss. When I’m looking them directly in the eye, and I’m reaching my hand behind them, and lowering their head towards mine an giving them that self confidence to reach out and lean forward and kiss me. That’s an incredibly powerful thing. And it’s an amazing gift to be able to give another human being.
Tim Ferriss: Definitely. I think these examples you’ve given have been very helpful, in terms of client demographics and characteristics because many people listening may have had, before listening to this, a certain image in their head of the client. Like who is the client who goes to a brothel or works with escorts, for instance? So, who goes to the Ranch or works with sex workers? If you had to broadly paint, are there certain demographics or psychographics that are particularly prevalent?
Alice Little: The easiest picture that I can paint is somebody who is over the legal age of consent, and with this, I will mention, too, in that the northern brothels, you have to be 18 years of age. In the southern brothels, which are near Vegas, you do have to be 21 years of age. So, do keep those things in mind. You have to meet the age requirements to enter the brothel. And that’s it. That’s, literally, the only requirement to be able to come to a brothel. I see men.
I see women. I see individual who are intersex. I have folks that are trans. I have folks that come to see me with no interest in sex at all that are completely asexual. And, instead, they just want to have experiences and cuddle with me. I see couples and adult virgins. I see non verbal individuals who have to communicate using a tablet. And I see folks that are in their 70’s that are mourning the loss of their wife of 50 years. I see everything from adult virgins who are 18 years in age to adult virgins who are 50 years in age. I see men who haven’t had sex in 25 years. And I see men who have sex on the frequent, but they have a very specific fetish that they can’t ask their general sex partner to fulfill for them.
It is such an incredible rainbow of people that come to see me for just a huge, huge variety of women. And, unfortunately, our society kind of has this stigma, in a way, when we think of who a brothel client is where we painted this picture of this seedy guy in his 30’s who isn’t really well kept and probably has tattoos and piercings and just is a disrespectful, negative character on society.
We have all of these negative connotations with sex work, sex work clients, what the reality of sex work is, in this country, that, when you take a step back and look at the reality, I see everybody from the mailman to people who work in governmental office. The range is absolutely incredible.
Tim Ferriss: What are some other misconceptions about sex work, sex workers, clients thereof? Any other misconceptions, in particular, that you’d like to speak to or that come to mind?
Alice Little: In regard to the women themselves, there’s this misconception about sex workers that we ended up here because of something. That rather than choosing, we’re reacting to something that happened to us. That could not be further from the truth. The majority of women that come to work at the brothels are incredibly well educated, come from a variety of different backgrounds all over the country in a whole array of different ages and body types. To give you an idea, one of my co-workers, Amelia Hart, is just incredible. She has multiple college degrees. She’s a massage therapist and is truly a brilliant mind. Meeting her for the first time, you wouldn’t realize just how well educated she is, until you get that opportunity to sit down with her, and you hear the quality of what she’s saying.
And you realize this is somebody that could be pursuing a doctorate, if they so choose. But, instead, they’ve chosen to go ahead and embrace sex work. And the one commonality that I have found between the women who choose to do sex work and then, furthermore, choose to do sex work on a long term basis for be that six months, a year, two years, those ladies all look at sex work as a form of service to the community.
It’s something that we’re able to do, a genuine need that society has and has always had that we’re fulfilling. We’re fulfilling a service just like anybody else, any other legal profession. We pay our taxes. We have to pass a stringent background check in order to have a license to work at the Ranch. We’re required, by law, to go ahead and be tested for STI’s and STD’s every single week. It’s an incredibly professional, upscale environment with incredibly high class women. And I wish that more society would understand that sex is truly a societal need. And so long as that need exists, sex work will always be the natural answer.
Tim Ferriss: Well, I think this is an important point because, in the US at least, and elsewhere certainly, if you look at the war on drugs, which has been, by almost any measure, an abysmal failure with all sorts of perverse side effects and costs and ruined lives associated, if you take something that is even more so an innate human not just drive but need like sex and try to, in any way, repress it or prevent it completely, which certainly happens in many different areas of the US and different cultures in the US, that it will find some type of release valve whether you want it to or not.
And that the more proactive, intelligent, benevolent way to approach that is to create a structure within which you can explore that or provide that safely with proper regulation and taxes and so on and so forth. So, I really think this is an important point to underscore for many reasons. But the question I wanted to ask you, and maybe you can certainly provide thoughts on some of the other ladies, but aside from the service component and helping these vets or clients who really need this, what else do you get out of it? Why do you do this? And it’s not a moral judgement at all. I’m fascinated by it, clearly. But what do you, personally, get out of this that makes you enjoy the work?
Alice Little: For me, what I get out of it is a very honest look at humanity and a very honest connection with other human beings in a deep and meaningful way that society otherwise could not provide for me. I’ve always maintained that modern America is trapped behind the cell phone, behind the computer screen where we no longer interact with each other on that face to face level. We don’t hug each other. We don’t touch each other. And by virtue of my job, I don’t get to just hug and touch other human beings in my world. I get to interact with them in incredibly deep and meaningful ways intimately, intellectually. And, for me, it’s stimulating. And it’s enriching in my life. I find that it gives my life value, and it gives my life purpose. There’s so much to be learned by just getting to sit down with another human being, let alone getting to enter the bedroom with another human being. It allows me to learn more about myself, at the same time.
Tim Ferriss: What have you learned about yourself, would you say, over the last two years?
Alice Little: I’ve learned that I am an incredibly confident woman and that I don’t need to overcompensate for anything. Growing up 4’8 and being head and shoulders below my peers, I always felt this internal competitive nature like I’m not good enough. I have to work a little bit harder. I have to be a little bit better. I have to overcome what, to me, felt like a handicap. When you’re very petite, people look down on you. They treat you like a young child regardless of the fact that you’re an intelligent young woman. They don’t give you that same level of respect. And so, for me, I learned to have that inner confidence in myself and truly believe it and know that my value and my worth is very, very tangible.
It’s very, very real. And it, certainly, isn’t inhibited by who I physically am. If anything, I’ve come to find my height to be an advantage in my business, which is kind of a great irony, in a way.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. It’s coming full circle. I was looking at this description, which was striking with natural red hair, elfin features, and a startlingly petite 4’8 frame. That sounds to me like a very strong set of differentiators. Right?
Alice Little: To give you an idea, during a line up, I, literally, will watch the guys, but they’ll make eye contact with each girl. And they’ll reach me, and you just see their heads look all the way down because they have to lower their head to make eye contact with me in comparison to the woman standing on my left and my right. So, it’s very, very fun. You always get to see this funny little head nod when I’m in line up. And it kind of makes me smile.
Tim Ferriss: What have you learned about men in the last, it doesn’t have to be two years, but just in this work? Are there any particular insights that you can share or things that you’ve realized about men? And I understand that men are a huge category and that there are many, many, many, many different types of men with different likes and dislikes and so on. But if you were trying to generalize, is there anything, in particular, that you would say you’ve learned about men?
Alice Little: I would say the biggest thing that I’ve learned about men is that society misjudges them and places this expectation of toxic masculinity, which prevents men from embracing that emotional and that sexual side of themselves. That’s incredibly limiting as a society for us to have that kind of moral judgment against 50 percent of the general population.
That’s craziness. We don’t allow men to express themselves sexually. We don’t allow men to express themselves emotionally. And when somebody comes to see me at the Ranch, all men, regardless of what they think that they are coming to the brothel for, the primary reason that they are coming to the brothel is because they want to be heard. They want to be listened to. And, most importantly, they just want to be understood.
Tim Ferriss: What is – is there a particular ask or need or fantasy that guys come to you with, and they think that it’s somehow unique to them, but, in fact, you see it all of the time. Is there anything that comes to mind that would, I suppose, fit those parameters?
Alice Little: I’d say there are two things that I see that are most unexpected. The first we’ve kind of already touched on, which are adult, male virgins. Many adult, male virgins come with this fantasy of losing their virginity, and they don’t realize that it’s such a common thing. And they feel very insecure and nervous about it when it’s, actually, a very common happening. So, that would probably be the first thing. The second thing that I see very, very frequently is men simply want to have sex with a woman when she has her eyes open. A lot of women have this interesting habit where we close our eyes when we’re having sex where we don’t want to make that direct eye contact with our partner.
For a lot of me, they find that to be incredibly, incredibly erotic and stimulating to see all of the little micro muscles move and twitch as somebody gets closer and closer to orgasm, getting to feel their breath and also see the expression change in their eyes and in their face and watch their pupils dilate and contract in response to what you’re physically doing. I mean, God, it doesn’t get much hotter than that.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, no, it doesn’t. There’s a site that I wrote about in my second book, Four Hour Body, where there are actually two chapters, not just one, two chapters dedicated to female orgasm, for those people interested. But there’s a site, I don’t even know if it’s still around, I think it should be, but it’s called Beautiful Agony. And Beautiful Agony is a site dedicated to user submitted videos of faces as each person is orgasming. So, it’s specifically focused on faces during climax and orgasm. So, yes, I agree. That makes perfect sense to me. So, men who want to have sex with a woman while she has her eyes open, incredible.
Alice Little: And it seems such like a simple request, too. But, honestly, it can be kind of difficult as women because you have to be really confident in yourself sexually, confident in what you’re doing, or relaxed enough where you can make eye contact and it not feel forced or uncomfortable. In order for eye contact during sex to actually come off in a way that’s erotic, you’d be surprised. It’s actually more difficult than you would think.
Tim Ferriss: Well, just maintaining eye contact, in general, I think, in conversation, for instance, particularly when talking is difficult for a lot of people. And like anything else, you have to practice. It just requires mileage. You really have to put in the repetitions. A question for you. I suppose that it is somewhat related because you mentioned the GFE, the girlfriend experience is the No. 1 requested service that you offer. Now, I find this kind of puzzling, in a sense. And I’d love to hear your additional thoughts. And the reason I say it’s puzzling is that I know, among say Type A, successful males who have traveled a lot around the world, it’s, at least in my experience, the vast majority, particularly overseas but not necessarily limited to overseas, have had experiences with sex workers.
Very, very, very, very common. And, for many of them, they choose to go to sex workers because they don’t want to contend with the emotional elements of a relationship or potential attachment or follow up. They have this sexual need, and they view visiting sex workers as a very sort of clean and simple way to satisfy that. So, why is the girlfriend experience the most requested? Yeah, that’s unexpected for me. So, maybe you can speak to that.
Alice Little: Sure. And I’ll even go ahead and speak to the specific example you gave. Because men that travel for work, they choose, specifically, and this is a conscious decision, to not engage in a traditional relationship. Often times, what they will do is they’ll see the same lady on a frequent, reoccurring basis rather than seeing different ladies. So, in a way, they’re kind of entering a unique, committed sort of relationship within that bounded time constraint that they are there together with that person. It allows them to be in control of the duration of the intimacy, how that interaction goes, and you don’t have to do any of that maintenance and upkeep as a relationship does. And then, economically speaking, interestingly enough, it’s cheaper to frequently visit sex workers than actually have a wife and get married.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, that doesn’t surprise me. I mean, I heard somebody say in a movie free sex is the most expensive sex you’ll ever have.
Alice Little: That’s not wrong. Honestly, it is so much easier to just seek out a professional because, if you have that need, and you need to get that need met, going to the legal brothel is an amazing solution. 1) You know you’re not going to catch anything because we’re, literally, tested every single week. 2) You don’t have to worry about any of your private information being violated, especially for professional men that may not want to be open or put themselves at risk of doing an illegal activity. Sex in Nevada at the brothels is 100 percent legal. You can go ahead and pay for sex, and you don’t have to worry about that legal risk of things. So, for a lot of men, that’s a huge advantage, too. Another thing that I often times see with men that fall into that particular situation is they enjoy the familiarity of the same individual girl.
But they know that they’re not obligated to do anything. They don’t have to text. They don’t have to call. They don’t have to say where are you, why didn’t you do the laundry. You don’t get any of that nagging or any of those negative relation things that can be, often times, detrimental. Instead, you kind of get to cherry pick the best parts of relationships. You get to go out on dates and have dinner. We can rent a helicopter and fly over Lake Tahoe and take photos together, whatever the scenario happens to be. It gives you the exact experience you want within the constraints of time that you have available to yourself without any sort of commitment or obligation beyond that.
Tim Ferriss: So, I was just going to say most of what you just said would lead the friends I mentioned before to nod their heads and say yes, exactly. So, where do we then find the girlfriend experience falling in terms of appeal? Because I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. And I should also say, for people listening, I think there is – I, certainly, find value in relationships, intimate relationships and sex with girlfriends that I’m in deep, committed relationships with. Nonetheless, this is, I think, another piece – potentially, another piece of the puzzle that’s worth, at a very minimum, understanding. So, the GFE, why is that the most requested? I guess, in my mind, maybe I’m just a savage, but I’m thinking, if I’m going to pay for four hours, I’ve already established that I’m attracted to you. Why not have sex for four hours?
Alice Little: Oh, you certainly can do that. No one is saying that you can’t do that. If you have the physical stamina, please, I won’t turn you away.
Tim Ferriss: So, please speak on the GFE. Why is that the most requested, do you think?
Alice Little: Of course. I think the first thing that needs to be discussed is the girlfriend experience is just that. You are creating an experience for somebody. It’s bounded by the constraints of our time together. It’s not a perpetual relationship, which is what makes it different than say a standard girlfriend. It’s an experience. Within that experience, you’re getting a couple of very unique, let’s call them, features. One of the features of the girlfriend experience is that I specifically take my time to get to know who somebody is on an even greater level because, generally speaking, within a GFE experience, we visit each other more than just once. This isn’t, generally, a standalone encounter but rather a regular occurrence a couple of times a year, if somebody lives locally, perhaps more frequently.
Whatever it so may be. I digress a little bit here. But it’s kind of important to point out that one of the classic features of girlfriend experience is that, more frequently than not, it tends to be a reoccurring experience. And it also allows us to develop a relationship with each other. For men, emotion and sex very, very frequently go hand in hand. It’s not just a pure physical arousal, but it’s also that mental stimulus.
It’s being able to sit and have a quality conversation with the women you’re about to have sex with like I think that’s incredibly appealing to sit down with somebody and have them perhaps talk about astrophysics with me before foreplay. Oh, yeah, bring it on. That is foreplay for my brain right there.
Tim Ferriss: And what is the average duration of a girlfriend experience session, so to speak?
Alice Little: I’d say, on average, between the two to four hour range. Of course, I’ve had experiences more limited, and I’ve had experiences more extenuous than that, too.
Tim Ferriss: I know this is going to seem like a left turn, but we’re going to jump all over the place, what are your feelings or opinions of porn as a sex worker?
Alice Little: That’s a very interesting question, indeed. I think that porn is ruining America. It’s ruining relationships. And it’s ruining intimacy. What porn does is it creates this almost addictive compulsion where you’re scrolling through, you’re watching the porn. We’re going to assume it’s a male watching, at this point. He’s masturbating. He’s being very, very rough with his genitalia. And he is just going at it for however long it so may be. First, rather than investing his time and energy in a genuine connection with a real human being, he’s watching the Broadway equivalent of a sex act that is being overdramatized for his entertainment.
Because I’ll tell you right now that everything that women do in porn is the exact opposite of what happens in real life. Secondly, it’s causing men to cause physical harm to themselves. They’re masturbating so roughly that, often times, they’ll lose sensitivity. And it makes it difficult for them to orgasm and climax with their partner, which, of course, leads to the almost cycle of going back and masturbating because they’re not able to orgasm with their significant other. They have to have that rough stimulus. The third thing that it does is it perpetuates this culture where we look at sex and we look at women as objects. There’s no real way to verify, unfortunately, that all of the porn that you’re coming across on these websites is consensual porn.
You have no idea how old these women necessarily are. You don’t know if they’ve been compensated for their time. Unless you’ve really done your research, and you’ve picked an ethical porn website that does perfect recordkeeping based in the United States, there’s no guarantee. And the majority of guys that I know, they just go to some website, they scroll through, and they click on the first thing that looks interesting without a second thought as to what the impact is on the lives of the women and what kind of societal norm that perpetuates.
If we manage to remove porn from our society, I think we would see men spending more time developing genuine connections with other women. They would be going out more. They would be exploring those dynamics and exploring those things rather than that self-gratifying behavior, which is also physically damaging.
Tim Ferriss: It would probably also be good for business at the Bunny Ranch, I would imagine, if porn were to vanish overnight. I suspect that you guys would be overrun.
Alice Little: It would be pandemonium. And the very first thing that I would have to do, believe it or not, is invest in a ton of flesh lights. The No. 1 – I’m honest.
Tim Ferriss: My friend used to sell those. He was the man behind the flesh light. So, maybe you can describe for people what the flesh light is and why you’d be investing in the flesh light.
Alice Little: What the flesh light is is it is an apparatus used for male sexual gratification that is in a tube that looks very much so like a flashlight. But rather than having the inner working light component, instead, it has an artificial vagina or lips or derrière or breast made out of silicone or other flesh like feeling material, which you then insert your penis into for self-gratification.
Tim Ferriss: Got it.
Alice Little: Wow, that was a really technical way to describe it, wasn’t it?
Tim Ferriss: That was technical. So, you would keep the fast running, porn deprived maniacs at bay by sort of hurling flesh lights at them over some type of barricade like hand grenades just to make sure that you can keep the tsunami of sexual agitation at bay. No, that makes sense. I like that.
Alice Little: It’s going to be like Oprah Winfrey. And you get a flesh light. And you get a flesh light. Everybody gets a flesh light.
Tim Ferriss: You’d have to take all of these guys who spent too much time on laptops and train them on how to catch things because you might just end up taking eyes out with flesh lights. But, yes.
Alice Little: So, the reason why I specifically mentioned flesh lights is guys are hurting themselves when they’re masturbating. They’re gripping too tightly. They’re pulling too hard. When you’re using the flesh light, it takes away that ability. It completely takes it out of the equation. So, you’re still able to get sexual gratification with yourself, but you’re also not hurting yourself and damaging your ability to enjoy sex with a partner. So, honestly, I think all guys out there, the No. 1 things that they could do for their own sexual wellness is buy a flesh light.
Tim Ferriss: This episode of the Tim Ferriss Show is brought to you buy the flesh light. That one was free, flesh light. Please donate many thousands of dollars to your favorite, benevolent cause, donorschoose.org I’m sure will accept your money. But, yeah. You’re welcome, flesh light.
Alice Little: A flesh light is not a replacement for a real human being. It certainly isn’t a replacement for the true flesh and blood thing. But it, certainly, is an alternative option for single men out there who are masturbating at home and are starting to experience some of these sensitivity issues. It’s something to bear in mind because it’s going to make your sexual experiences so much more intense and so much better.
Tim Ferriss: Yes, for the real vagina deficient masses out there who are masturbating themselves into genital destruction, words to the wise.
All right. So, let me segue on that to Googling your name. So, you have reviews online. And I’ve seen you described in very laudable terms, in one word, for instance, this is one reviewer, in one word, wow. In two words, fuck yeah. In a sentence, drop your pants, ladies and gentlemen, and see her now. Okay. So, you have, as it were, very good Yelp reviews. If you were a restaurant, I’d be like damn, I need to go to that restaurant. So, what separates – let’s just focus on female sex workers. What separates a good female sex worker from a great female sex worker? Because you’re sort of the Michael Jordan of your sport.
And you’re allowed to say communication, but it can’t be your full answer. And if you say communication, you have to give me very specific examples of what makes you different.
Alice Little: It has nothing to do with communication, in this particular case.
Tim Ferriss: Okay.
Alice Little: What I think the big, differentiating factor is passion. That zest for life. That inquisitive nature and desire for more. That lust overall for life. Not just necessarily for sex or money but rather that constant desire and drive for what’s next, what’s more. I’m passionate, and I want to learn, and I want to explore and experience. So, I’d say being passionate about what I do really is what separates me and kind of puts me that head and shoulders above everybody else. I’m an incredibly vocal advocate for sex workers, sex workers’ rights. I’m an incredibly well educated individual when it comes to sex, sex needs, sex intimacy. And it’s something that I really consider myself to be not just an expert in but something that I’m truly and genuinely passionate about.
It has such a great meaning and impact on my life personally that it definitely has left its thumb print on the essence of who I am. Because I’ve allowed it to affect me on that deep, personal level, I’m also able to give of myself in a very deep, personal way that I think is kind of rare in our society these days.
Tim Ferriss: So, give me an example, if you can, because, not to really beat the Michael Jordan analogy to death, but it’s like Michael Jordan clearly had – actually, I heard an anecdote from one of the mental performance coaches for the Bulls, at the time, who I think previously had worked with the Lakers on meditative and mindfulness practices who said that Jordan was perhaps the only player who reflected the skills he was trying to impart to the others. So, you have say his ability to generate this being in the zone at will or something like that. But then, you have Jordan as a brilliant technician, tactician, and so on. So, I’m interested in digging into the passion. But I need some examples. How does that translate to an experience for someone?
Alice Little: I’m trying to think of the best way to verbalize that. I would say the easiest way to kind of encapsulate what you’re talking about is to go back and reference something that I’m very interested in, which is the 48 Laws of Power. It’s really a phenomenal book, really, really interesting.
Tim Ferriss: Robert Green.
Alice Little: Yes. Speaks quite a lot about the mental capacities of somebody, how we view and interact with the world around us. There’s a certain level of mindfulness that that book preaches to be cognizant of your decisions where you’re making your decisions rather than letting yourself react to what’s happening around you.
So, I guess one of the things that also makes me different is that level of mindfulness. I always take that extra step. I always do just a little bit more than everybody else would. If it’s somebody’s birthday, and they told me that, in passing, they enjoy chocolate cake, then, I’m going to go ahead, and I’m going to bake them a chocolate cake. And then, I’m also going to go ahead and get candles for it. And then, I’m also going to reference back and find out what sort of interests and hobbies they have and get them a birthday present and a birthday card.
I always like to take things to that next level, that next intensity whether it be from simply doing say my website and just blogging casually. Oh, no, I’m very, very careful and very specific in the way that I blog.
I try to communicate my point and my viewpoint within my words. I really try to emphasize my beliefs and place an importance on that connectivity and that interaction that we get to share. It really is the encapsulating part of the experience for me is being willing to take the time and the effort to do a little bit more than most. When most people would stop working, that’s where I keep going. I push just a little bit harder, whether that be through marketing, whether that be through client interaction, whether that be through how I choose to present myself online. All of those things, it’s just a little bit more, a little bit extra. Just really demonstrating that I want to be known for this field. I want to be known for creating these incredible experiences for people. And I want people to have those encounters and have those experiences and think about them as a potential for their own life.
Tim Ferriss: All right. Let’s talk about, then, something you mentioned is on the bucket list for a lot of men. And that is a threesome. So, if you are working with say one of your female friends who is also a sex worker and providing that experience for a man, what are some of the ways that you guys would go above and beyond in that experience and, specifically, I’m curious about maybe some of the technical stuff, some of the acts themselves, things that may not be obvious, or things that may be unexpected. Anything really is that unfolds. What’s the secret sauce? What are some of the magic ingredients?
Alice Little: When it comes to a threesome encounter, the ultimate frosting, cherry on top, whipped cream dessert of it all is, honestly, a two girl blow job where the two of us are kneeling before a guy who is standing one positioned on either side of his member, both of our mouths and our hands on his body, looking up at him and pleasuring him where he truly is the center of our world for that moment.
I have had guys rant and rave about that kind of experience more so than anything else when it comes to a threesome because just being able to feel like, wow, I am the center of someone’s sexual attention and the center of someone’s sexual universe is hot.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, sure. Yeah, no, that’s – I’m not confused or surprised. The related question, I suppose, for people out there who are interested in becoming better at giving blow jobs, what recommendations would you have for them?
Are there any dos or do nots, common mistakes, anything that you can suggest to enhance the experience? What are your thoughts? If you were teaching a class, maybe you have taught a class on this, for that matter –
Alice Little: I have, in fact, taught this class on how to give the better blow job. It’s a fun one.
Tim Ferriss: All right. So, what are some of the key teachings?
Alice Little: The first thing you need to do is look at what your general blow job routine is. Are you doing the same things over and over again? Are you focusing on the head or a particular part of the penis? Are you making eye contact? What are you doing right now? Whatever it is that you’re doing right now, the next step is to go ahead and add to it. So, if you’re just doing a standard blow job focusing on the head, pause for a moment, look up, and make really direct eye contact with your partner, and then, keep going while keeping that eye contact maintained.
It’s going to change the energy and change the interaction. Then, you can take it the next step further and start playing with, perhaps, food. Have you ever taken whipped cream and put whipped cream on top of your man and then, had whipped cream off of his member? That can be an incredibly erotic way to do things. Not to mention the fact that, in a technical term, by placing a food object, it kind of gives your mouth a taste guide for what parts of the body you have and have not paid attention to yet. It really creates this moment where you have to slow down, and you have to make sure you clean up all of the whipped cream.
And it’s a really pleasurable way to slow things down and enjoy the moment and enjoy the action. So, it’s about being willing to try new things in your blow job. And, of course, ladies, watch the teeth.
Tim Ferriss: Yes. Watch the teeth. That would be a good bumper sticker. So, a good message to impart. Hand, no hand, if hand involved, just fingers, full hand? I guess, you’re 4’8, so, maybe you probably have tiny hands, so, I’m not sure. It must make guys feel amazing. They’re like oh, my God. Is my cock really huge, or are her hands just really small? I don’t care. It looks so amazing.
Alice Little: Both is good.
Tim Ferriss: So, what are your thoughts on hands?
Alice Little: I tend to like to cup the balls. I tend to like to cup them, massage them between my hands, not too roughly. You really don’t want to pull on them or put serious pressure on them, but just having that added sensation there for a lot of guys can actually make their orgasm significantly more intense. A lot of guys –
Tim Ferriss: So, when you say cupping, you’re talking about one hand is cupping like you’re holding a baby bird or something like that.
Alice Little: Yes. Kind of as if you had two eggs sitting in the center of your hand. And then, you’re kind of spinning those two eggs back and forth against each other, kind of sliding them against each other, sliding them against your hand, kind of providing a light, tactile stimulation.
Tim Ferriss: Got it. And then, what are you doing with the other hand? Or what might you be doing with the other hand?
Alice Little: A lot of guys enjoy the sensation of feeling deep inside a woman. And how they tend to perceive this, and a lot of guys do this subconsciously when they’re masturbating, whatever hand they’re not using, they’re placing on the crook of their inner thigh, and they’re placing pressure there. What that does for the body is it transmits and translates to the nerves that makes them feel as if they are deep inside of a woman’s body. So, sometimes, what I’ll do is I’ll place my other hand that isn’t on their balls, I’ll place it against their body against their shaft at the very, very base of it and kind of give that pressure sensation as if they are deep inside of a woman. That combined with the pleasured I’m giving using my mouth and the pleasure I’m giving using my hand, it can really create a mind blowing orgasm.
Tim Ferriss: Thank you for the details.
Alice Little: Like if a guy normally doesn’t finish during a blow job, a lot of guys find that they’re not able to, by adding those two simple things, it can completely change their mindset on blow jobs and make it one of their favorite ways to finish.
Tim Ferriss: All right. So, I was mentioning five star Yelp reviews earlier. So, in the context of a threesome that you’re in charge of, you and another woman are kind of running the show. So, you already talked about a man standing, two women on the floor. If you’re looking at greatest hits like what gets the most rave reviews for finishing? What does the last five minutes look like?
Alice Little: The big KO. So, the big KO often looks like the guy on his back, myself on top in doggie style, the other lady is reversed where she’s facing me but sitting on top of his face in such a way that he’s still able to see. And her and I are making out, playing with each other’s breasts, and really getting into the encounter.
I happen to be bisexual, so, I’m already head over heels about everything that’s happening. And most of the ladies that I do two girl experiences with are also bisexual. So, there’s that energy of natural chemistry between the two of us, and that attraction, in addition to the focus on his pleasure. It is just so stimulating both visually and then, just in regard to how he’s feeling that a lot of guys cum that way, and they cum really, really hard.
Tim Ferriss: The big KO.
Alice Little: It’s a big KO. It’s a lot of fun because, if you have never gotten to have sex like that, you are missing out. That is one of life’s eighth wonder is a mind blowing threesome.
Tim Ferriss: No disagreement there. Agreed, agreed. That’s unfortunate there aren’t more threesomes in the world for sure. The big KO. Now, just to really hone in on the visual, so, you are on top of the man, mounted on the man facing towards his head. You mentioned doggie style, but you’re kind of in cowgirl. Not really cowgirl, is cowgirl only when you have your knees up, but your knees are down.
Alice Little: Yeah. So, it’s still considered to be cowgirl. It’s where I’m on top of him, and my body is upright rather than leaned or tipped forward. The other lady is facing me parallel. So, we’re looking at each other, so, she’s facing him, and she’s sitting on his face in such a way that he’s able to give her oral stimulation. But then, he’s also able to see everything that’s going on. Often times, we’ll use mirrors for this, if the angle is a little bit difficult. A lot of our rooms already have them installed to kind of give that visual emphasis, too, not just the physical.
Tim Ferriss: Sounds lovely.
Alice Little: It’s pretty fun.
Tim Ferriss: Before I just get lost in reverie, back to my interviewing. I want to talk about the negotiating again because I’m very interested in this. And I know we touched on it very briefly. But what types of points are you negotiating? Are you negotiating price? I’d love for you to dig into the specifics. Give some examples. What kind of stuff is being agreed upon and settled on in that conversation beforehand?
Alice Little: During the negotiation, the very first thing that is discussed is what we are doing, where we are doing it, what they desire to get out of that experience, and what kind of a budget they are working with. And, at that point, yes, we are definitely negotiating over price. Of course, the more flexible someone’s budget is, the more in depth of an experience they’re able to have.
There definitely is a correlation there between those two things. What’s very interesting, in our industry, is that there is nowhere else that we can talk about price, except at the physical location of the brothel in our bedrooms. So, this isn’t something that can be done in advance online or over the phone. This is something that you actually have to do in person due to how Nevada law is written. There’s no rates posted online on my website. None of that information is anything we discuss. So, price is definitely one of the things that we negotiate for. It, of course, varies from person to person.
And it’s worth mentioning that the Ranch is billed very discretely. So, you can feel comfortable using your debit or credit card there because it is a professional business and not worry about that being a concern.
Tim Ferriss: It is a tax consultation, Carson City or wherever it might be. What is the descriptor? What shows up on the statement? I’m so curious.
Alice Little: Oh, we actually usually don’t publicize that information, the reason being is –
Tim Ferriss: Oh, right, right, right.
Alice Little: If it’s on the internet, it’s not anonymous.
Tim Ferriss: I would make thousands of enemies. Sorry, sorry. I didn’t really think that one through. All of the wives listening would be like immediately looking for all of the things that might show up. Okay. Got it, got it. Safeway, potato chips, Ranch. I think that would be my code.
Alice Little: That sounds terrible.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, my God. I just said that out loud. So, let’s keep going. It’s very discreet.
Alice Little: But you do definitely discuss price. Some clients are very comfortable talking about the intimate details of the sexual experience they want. If a client is interested in role play, they may be very specific and say I want you to wear a red, school girl skirt with a white, tight blouse top with your hair in high pigtails.
It could be that specific, or it could be as generic as I want to have sex, if they’re a male virgin, and they’re not comfortable talking about sex, at that point. And so, each person’s negotiation is going to go a little bit differently. But, generally speaking, I like to cover the where we want to go, what we want to do, do they have a specific end goal in mind or something that they really want to experience. And then, I kind of custom tailor and explain to them, well, based off of what you’ve told me, I think the best encounter for you is going to look like this. Generally speaking, we’ll want to spend an afternoon together.
And this is kind of what we’re looking at price wise. And then, we just kind of take it from there. Either they’re able to do that, and we’re good to go, and this is where it’s a negotiation because we can go, oh, I can’t quite get there. What if we take this activity away? Can we still have plenty of time for everything else? We can? Great. Let’s focus on that then.
Tim Ferriss: What if I don’t get the power windows, and I don’t need the fancy rims?
Then, where do we end up? What is the range, if you’re able to say, on kind of low end, if we’re going like lean machine up to like the works? What’s the full Cadillac? Is it possible to give a range on something like that?
Alice Little: Sure thing. Of course, it’s going to vary from lady to lady because we’re all independent contractors. But a very, very general range or a way to framework it would be a very brief encounter could be in the three figure range. Something a little bit more in depth like going out to dinner would be somewhere in the four figure range. And if somebody chooses to spend a night or multiple days with me, then, we can certainly approach that five figure range. There have been gentlemen who have stayed at the Ranch who have even spent in the six to seven figure range because that just happens to be what their working budget is.
Because we see such a wide variety of clients, someone’s disposable income is completely varied. Somebody may be coming in and wanting to spend an entire week with a lady versus somebody coming in that really is just looking to have a really amazing massage and happening ending. There absolutely is no wrong request, and there, certainly, isn’t a right request. It’s whatever works for you for your budget and just being willing to have a conversation about, hey, this is what I kind of had in mind. This is what I’m interested in. What can we make happen? If someone comes into my room with that attitude, I have no doubt we’ll be able to make something work.
Tim Ferriss: So, I’m just listening to some of these numbers. On the high end, is Dennis Hoff still the proprietor? Is he still the owner, or is it somebody else?
Alice Little: Yes, he is.
Tim Ferriss: Okay. So, Dennis, I understand it, was a frequent customer who purchased the business in 1993 for $700,000.00. And he invested, I think, another half million in upgrades and improvements.
So, that means, and I don’t know what the split is between the ladies and the house, so, we can get into that or not get into that. But it would seem like with one high roller who comes in, he could have recouped his entire investment, or at least the two tranches that mentioned, in the business. That’s pretty amazing if that is actually the case. I have no idea how the economics work. But it seems like a very self-sustaining, attractive, economic model, particularly if you have some of these folks flying in from God knows where, and they’re dropping six or seven figures. That’s got to cover a lot of incidentals.
Alice Little: Oh, it absolutely does. Dennis has gone, and he has expanded beyond just the Bunny Ranch. As of this moment, he owns seven different brothels. We have, up in the northern half of the state, we have the Moonlight Bunny Ranch, the Love Ranch North, the Kit Kat Ranch, and the Sagebrush Ranch. Down south near Vegas, we have the Alien Cat House and Love Ranch South. So, just to give you an idea, this is somebody that definitely found his industry, embraced it, ran with it, and has created a tremendous opportunity for the women that work at these locations that kind of build their own business within a business and a brand within a brand.
Tim Ferriss: So, now, you mentioned Alien Cat Ranch –
Alice Little: Alien Cat House.
Tim Ferriss: I was so close. Cat House sounds a lot better than Cat Ranch. And are these different genres? Are they different types of food, so to speak? Is it like if you want Italian, go here. If you want Thai food, go here. If you want this, go there. Or are each of those sort of buffet, choose your own adventure, there’s everything here? Or do each of them have a particular kind of personality and style?
Alice Little: I think that each location definitely has a unique energy to that location. However, it’s not like all blondes go to the Bunny Ranch and all brunettes go to Love Ranch. At each location, you’re going to find a variety of women in all ages, shapes, and sizes. And so, really, there’s not a wrong place to go. As far as facilities go, we’re able to travel between the different ranches. So, if somebody at Kit Kat Ranch is interested in having a threesome with myself and Hannah Fox who works over at the Kit Kat Ranch, Hannah would be able to come up to the Bunny Ranch and join myself and a client. Or in reverse, I’d be able to travel to the Kit Kat Ranch and join her and her client.
They’re all within about three minutes of each other, so, this is very, very close by as far as the northern houses, which is really fun because, when you think about it, it, literally, is a buffet. There’s 151 flavors. And, inevitably, there’s going to be somebody that is the perfect match for you.
Tim Ferriss: So, I have friends who are say travel writers. And this is going somewhere. And they find it difficult to travel for pleasure because, as soon as they start traveling, their mind clicks into work mode, and they think about the story they could tell, the detail they could write down, and so on. I suppose what I’m wondering is, after exploring this and pursuing it and dedicating yourself to this as a profession, what are the things that still turn you on the most? What are the things that you’re hoping will get requested? Does that make any sense? In a given week, you’re like, God, it would really make my week if somebody asked for this, this, or this. Is there anything that would come up in your mind in that way?
Alice Little: Believe it or not, I really like working with gentlemen who are a little bit older in age.
The reason for this is that they already know how to treat a lady right. They’re, often times, very familiar with sex. And they’re looking for so much more than just that casual quickie encounter. They want to take things to that next level of connection and intimacy. And I really find that my guests who are in their 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and up, they tend to have a certain maturity that I find incredibly, incredibly attractive.
Tim Ferriss: Holy shit. I just turned 40. I’m now an older gentleman. Oh, wow. It sounds like a good thing, I guess.
Alice Little: Well, I like to think of it as rather than being older, it’s being experienced where, at a certain point, you develop an appreciation for women. And I think, for men, that sometimes can take a little bit longer and sometimes doesn’t quite click into place until they reach a certain emotional maturity where they’re able to look at women as more than just a sex object but as being these incredibly intelligent and interesting beings.
A lot of guys struggle to see women as more than just sex objects for a number of years. And so, sometimes, it can take a little bit longer for guys to reach that threshold. And, honestly, at that certain point, too, a lot of those older gentlemen express to me I just don’t feel comfortable having sex with people my own age because I want somebody who is younger. I want somebody who is a little bit more vivacious and energetic. And maybe they have a little bit of a harder time finishing, and so, they’re looking for somebody who has the energy and stamina to really work with them and try exciting, new things. And I really enjoy that interaction. That and I’d say adult virgins, as well, really, really fulfilling to me to spend time with those people.
Tim Ferriss: What was the experience like telling your family about your decision to pursue this work? Walk us through that conversation or that day. What did that look like?
Alice Little: Oh, goodness. Well, I definitely could have done that a lot better than I did. I decided that, much like a Band Aid, I was just going to pull it off and just be like I am a sex worker. I am going to work at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch, and no, you cannot change my mind. And I pretty much said it about that directly and just very confidently said this is where I want to go. And this is the next step for me. And if you want to judge me for that, you can go ahead, but you’re not going to change my mind. I had already made up my mind, at that point. And nothing under the sun was going to change it. And it was –
Tim Ferriss: What were you doing at the time, not to interrupt? But what did your parents think you were doing, at the time, before that announcement?
Alice Little: Well, at that moment, I was actually working as a massage therapist. And I was getting ready to move out of the state for a couple of weeks just to try the job and make sure I liked it. And so, the first piece of news was I was leaving for two weeks, and here is why. And I decided, in all of my stubborn wisdom that I was going to inform this the day before I was scheduled to travel out to Nevada for the first time. So, I definitely should have gone ahead and given them a little bit more notice. But, at the same time though, I was going into it with almost this armament around myself where I’m expecting to overcome objections.
And I’m expecting to have to explain and go into this whole presentation about what sex in Nevada is. And the response I got back was pretty much, oh, okay, sweetie, if that’s what you want to do.
Are you sure that’s something you want to do? Is it safe? Are you going to be safe? You are? Okay. You can go do that. Oh, okay, then. That was a much better reaction than I expected.
Tim Ferriss: Did you call a family meeting? Or did you go out to the Olive Garden? What was the setting for this? Can you pass the breadsticks? And oh, by the way? What was –
Alice Little: Yeah, breadsticks and sex work. They pair together beautifully.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. So, what was the setting? How did you tee it up?
Alice Little: Just at home. We were in the living room. I have a younger sibling who isn’t of legal age of consent. And so, of course, they’re not aware of what I do professionally. So, I went ahead and specifically pulled my mother aside and had that conversation with her privately in the living room.
Tim Ferriss: And was she watching TV? Were you like, hey, let’s just DVR what you’re watching? Or was she doing a crossword puzzle? I’m trying to visualize it.
Alice Little: I think she was reading a magazine, at the time. She was just hanging out in the arm chair reading the magazine. I sat down next to her and said, “I want to tell you something.” And she put the magazine, and I just kind of blurted it all out there. “So, I’m going to be a legal sex worker, and I’m going to go work in Nevada.” And a cascade of information kind of came tumbling out of my mouth as I’m trying to explain things. And my mom’s face is completely unphased, at this point, which, I have to say, bravo to her for that. I definitely didn’t expect her to take the news quite as well as she did. And I was very happily surprised that she was just, “Oh, okay. That’s nice. Another crazy adventure that you want to go on. That’s about normal.”
Tim Ferriss: How do you explain that? Did you just – was your mom like a freewheeling, free thinking, hippie back in the day? Having come from Ireland, I don’t know the full background. Is she from Ireland herself?
Alice Little: Yes. She is extremely, extremely on the more conservative side of things, which is one of the reasons why I was expecting some of the objection.
Tim Ferriss: Blow back, yeah.
Alice Little: Since coming to the states, she’s kind of adapted a little bit more of the liberal standpoints here. In Ireland, especially in Northern Ireland right now, and especially back then, when we lived over there in the country, there was a very negative stigma attached to sex work. I had kind of done the research as what sex work is like in other countries and other places. And one of the things I came across is information about how sex work exists in Ireland, which it does not. And I kind of, again, in that way that I tend to overthink things, had this mental impression of what her reaction would be.
And the way that she looked at it, she’s like, hey, you know what? So long as you’re not racing those damn horses anymore and falling off and breaking your arm, you’re just going to go have sex in Nevada? Cool. That’s not bad compared to some of the crazy things that I have done with my life.
Tim Ferriss: That’s a very understanding mother.
Alice Little: Which is kind of interesting. And, when you think about it, from the sheer safety standpoint, being a jockey was certainly a riskier profession than being a legal sex worker in Nevada. My job is actually incredibly safe both because of how the location is set up, in addition to the legality and laws that protect the ladies.
Tim Ferriss: So, let’s shift gears a bit, and I’ll ask a handful of rapid fire questions that I ask just about everybody. And we’ll just spend a few minutes going through four or five of these. And then, I will let you get back to your day. This has been so much fun. I can go for hours and hours and hours. But the –
Alice Little: I was going to say I am enjoying this so much. I’m having a blast.
Tim Ferriss: This is fun. No, I’m really glad we were able to connect.
And I will have already thanked the person who made the mutual introduction in the intro. But let’s talk about books because you collect books. Are there any books that you have gifted the most to other people? Are there any books that you have given out more than once as gifts that come to mind or that you would give as gifts?
Alice Little: Definitely. I would say the top three books that I tend to give as gifts, the first one would be a book that’s written by Dennis Hoff called The Art of the Pimp. It, literally, talks about his journey, how he ended up getting the Bunny Ranch, and a lot of the intimate details in relationship to sex in Nevada. For anybody that’s interested in what I do, wanting to learn a little bit more about the industry, that is always the first book I give is this is kind of your handbook, as it were, to the world of legal sex in Nevada. The second book that I give out most frequently is to my co-workers.
It would be The 48 Laws of Power. A lot of the ladies haven’t had the opportunity or haven’t been exposed to that book. And so, I think that it’s a great tool to get into the hands of women and get that positive thinking going, that energy that that book really tends to encapsulate. And the third book is kind of an interesting one. It’s a book called Memoirs of a Geisha. It speaks as to the life of a woman who ended up being a geisha in Japan during the World War II era who was kind of purchased from her family and unwillingly brought into this very foreign world that could not be any more different than what her life was like. The reason why I tend to recommend this book for other people is that there’s this incredibly beautiful, humanistic element in the way that she describes.
The author uses language that is very, very rich and colorful. And it sits you into that time and place where you smell the fish in front of you. You hear the sound of the shamisen that she’s playing. You can really immerse yourself into that world and kind of get a sense of what things were like, at that time.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. It’s a fantastic book. And the author, actually, wrote the entire book twice. He wrote it first, was dissatisfied with how it turned out, scrapped it, and started over and wrote it a second time, which is just, speaking as a writer, is unimaginable. I’ve thrown out chapters, but the entire novel, oh, my God. And, yeah, it also sheds light on some of the craft and art form related to being a courtesan during that period of time.
And I actually had the opportunity to go to spend some time in I think it was Kyoto in Japan. I’ve spent a lot of time in Japan. And to arrange a formal dinner with performances with a number of friends of mine with two what they call geiko. So, instead of geisha, they would call them geiko, with a K-O at the end. And same idea, different dialect, different label, effectively. No sex involved. But came in and played the shamisen and did a number of traditional dance routines and prepared tea and went through all of this ritual. It was a very beautiful experience that I highly recommend, if people have the opportunity. So, very diverse set of three books.
The next question is a purchase of less than $100.00, it doesn’t have to be less than $100.00, that has most improved your life in the last year or recent memory. Any purchase that has improved your quality of life that comes to mind. It could be something that costs $5.00. It could be something that’s free, actually, or anything sort of in that range.
Alice Little: That is a really interesting question. I would have to say, believe it or not, and it seems like such a strange, little thing, I like to cook for myself a lot. And I tend to eat very clean and healthy. I enjoy a lot of vegetables. The one contraption that I find myself using time and time again is one of those little spaghetti creations where you insert the squash or zucchini, and you kind of twist it, and it turns it into a noodle instead. It makes the vegetable really easy to cook. It’s great for meal prep. And given how hectic my work week is, having that easy to use tool available to me has made my life a lot easier.
Tim Ferriss: So, it’s a vegetable spaghetti maker, effectively. So, it will push it through some type of press to slice it into these thin strips, is that what it does?
Alice Little: Yes. And then, if I had to go slightly above $100.00, I would have to say that my cordless Hitachi has been a gift from God.
Tim Ferriss: Okay, the cordless Hitachi Magic Wand.
Alice Little: Yes.
Tim Ferriss: Which has more settings.
Alice Little: Yeah. And now, you’re not limited to just being harnessed by this cord. Now, you have a lot more freedom of movement with the toy. And having that available within the context of my job has been a ton of fun. We have had so many great experiences with it. It’s been fantastic.
Tim Ferriss: All right. Hitachi. Same thing I said to the flesh light. The first one is on me. Call me. We can figure out your official sponsorship. So, the Hitachi cordless. If you were to be given a billboard, you could put anything on the billboard and, metaphorically speaking, to get a message out to millions or billions of people. So, it could be a few words, it could be a single word, it could be a paragraph, it could be someone else’s quote. What would you put on it, or what might you put on it?
Alice Little: Well, the first part of that would be as to where. And I think I would go ahead and choose to put mine as close to the White House as physically possible where people in legislature are going to have eyes on this thing as frequently as possible. And my message would be very, very simple. Sex is a need not a want. Sex legalization is the future of America.
Tim Ferriss: I like it. Sex is a need not a want.
Alice Little: And legalization, it’s the next logical step. The fact that our country has it in one single state and only within the constraints of specific locations within that state is, of course, very limiting. It means that you’re required to travel to Nevada in order to legally spend time with a sex worker in the United States. And, for a lot of people, that’s not feasible. And so, having legal options that are run very similar to the Nevada brothel system but in other locations I think is where our country is going to, inevitably, be going.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it’s ridiculous because, if we’re viewing it through the lens of a need, of course, sex workers are everywhere. And they just get pushed underground where safety is compromised, and there’s no oversight in the case that it is maintained as illegal in those locations. So, it’s going to exist whether regulators choose to ignore it or systematize it and embrace it, in some capacity. And they might as well get the tax revenue and decrease the risks for everyone involved. So, I agree with you.
Alice Little: It’s often said that prostitution is the oldest profession. And that really is true. If you look back into history, and you go back into ancient Sumer and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and society, you have this incredible conceptualization of something called sacred sexuality where, by doing sex work, that’s what brought them closer to their deities, at that time. That’s what brought them closer to the divine. The sex workers, or, in this case, they were also priestesses of their particular deity, were incredibly revered. They lived in the temples themselves. They were treated like gold. They were incredibly well respected for the service they provided to society.
When you look back on how the kings of Europe treated their mistresses, for example, often times gifting them with titles and nobility and land, lavish jewels. Sex workers have always been treated as a treasure. And it’s only in recent societal times that we’ve, instead, taken this negative connotation and kind of attached that onto sex work.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. No, it’s – there are so many changes needed in this country, but that’s, certainly, one of them. If you were – let’s say you had a chance to educate a class of young minds, so, you are given the opportunity to teach a class. It’s a once per week seminar for a semester for college freshmen or college seniors. It could be even high school. Let’s say a high school senior or college freshmen, let’s just say that, what would you teach, and what would you focus on? It does not have to be sex related, but if you had to teach something that you feel you know a lot about it that you’d be qualified to teach on in some way, what would you teach? What would the class be?
Alice Little: I think I would give lectures about interpersonal relationships and connectivity as it relates to our society as a whole. Why we should be more cognizant of how we treat our service staff, waitresses, hotel concierge staff, things of that nature. How we interact with humanity around us as a whole. How do we treat say the McDonald’s worker or the person checking us out at Walmart? How do we interact with our classmates and our colleagues? What about the interpersonal relationship between that student teacher dynamic? I think I would want to really go into talking about the depth and meanings of different connections and how they can be used to better and enrich our lives in society.
If we’re able to change that generational mindset of the youth and get them to put their cell phone down and sit down and have a meal where they’re talking amongst their peers, that’s going to generate new ideas. That’s going to generate new innovations. That’s what’s going to take us to that next point in our society where all of these things we say we’d like to accomplish within our society will actually be achievable through that [inaudible] mind, that cognitive collection of everyone contributing and interacting and working together and kind of forming this unity and this bond. And, sure, you could say that it could be about sex. But, really, I think that it comes down to that level of connectivity, that level of interpersonal relationship is vital to human kind.
Tim Ferriss: I agree. So, now, we’re at the tail end of this conversation, of this Round 1, at least. And people can find you online if they wanted to say hello @alicelittle on Twitter. Then, you’re on the Bunny Ranch, bunnyranch.com/alice-little. Where else could people find you online?
Alice Little: Yeah. My Twitter is actually @thealicelittle –
Tim Ferriss: Oh, sorry about that, @thealicelittle.
Alice Little: And then, I also maintain my own personal website and blog, thealicelittle.com. And you can go on there to see photos of myself, go through my blog and see about the different topics I write about. The website is also designed to kind of walk you through the different experiences and encounters that are available. And, of course, any questions related to sex work, I’m open to. It’s very important that we talk about these things. And it’s very important to embrace that curiosity. So, if anyone wants to know anything about what it is I do and the service I provide, I would love to get to know you. And I’d love to interact with you. Email is probably the best way to do it, which is firstname.lastname@example.org.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, God, you just did it. Okay. You may have to modify your email management approach, which is fine. You will be getting – I don’t think you’ll have to worry about getting too few email. So, you will –
Alice Little: I’m looking forward to it. I am all in.
Tim Ferriss: All right. You may get the hug of death. This is one of those be careful what you ask for things. Is there anything else that you would like to suggest to the people listening or to recommend to them, to ask of them? Is there anything else you’d like to communicate or impart before we wrap up this conversation?
Alice Little: I would say, as an overarching message, if there was really one thing that I had to ask of your viewership, it would be to have an honest conversation about sex with someone. It doesn’t have to be your significant other. It could be a friend. It could be a peer. It could be a professor. It could even be me. But let’s talk about sex. Our society, as a whole, isn’t talking about this. And sex isn’t going away. It’s a natural and normal part of being an adult in society. And it’s something that we should feel more comfortable talking about. So, go ahead and try to have that conversation.
It might be a little bit uncomfortable, at first, but, I guarantee you, if you push yourself, and you actually engage in that kind of interaction, you’re going to grow as a person for it and really, really benefit from it as a whole.
Tim Ferriss: Good advice. Very, very good advice. And another tool in the toolkit that I’ll recommend for people is to check out a book called, and I think this applies in many circumstances, to things that we are loath to talk about, but there’s a book called Radical Acceptance by Tara Brock who has also been on this podcast that I think is a useful wedge for getting your foot in the door to be open to accept certain things about yourself and then discuss them. Alice, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Alice Little: Oh, absolutely. I had a blast. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it and everything that you do.
Tim Ferriss: Thank you. This has been – I feel like this conversation has been a long time coming since 11 Minutes found me 10 years ago. And so much more food for thought, and I’m sure I’ll have many, many more questions. So, perhaps, we’ll do a Round 2, at some point. But, for everyone –
Alice Little: I’d love that.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. I’m sure that there will be many follow ups. And God save your inbox.
Alice Little: I was going to say send me your sex questions. Here we go. Let’s do this.
Tim Ferriss: And for everybody listening, as usual, you can find links to everything that we have talked about, including the books, the websites, thealicelittle.com, @thealicelittle on Twitter and so on in the show notes, along with the show notes for every other episode, at tim.blog/podcast. And, as always, and until next time, thank you for listening.
The Tim Ferriss Show is one of the most popular podcasts in the world with more than 500 million downloads. It has been selected for "Best of Apple Podcasts" three times, it is often the #1 interview podcast across all of Apple Podcasts, and it's been ranked #1 out of 400,000+ podcasts on many occasions. To listen to any of the past episodes for free, check out this page.