How to Reverse Aging with Art De Vany (#239)

Unbelievable. Tim, are you reading my mind? Great minds think alike. 2 weeks ago I purchased Art De Vany's book titled "The New Evolution Diet." I came across his name when researching High Intensity Training. You are on a roll Tim. Dorian Yates. Tim Flaherty, Rhonda Patrick and now Art. Terrific podcasts!

The audio is off, the two of them are talking over eachother because of a lag between the two mics.

Tim, first poster here, but have been a follower for a few years now. Thanks for the great work. Arthur was an awesome guest, enjoyed the comment that – damaged molecules come from damaged thoughts. Fascinating getting these opinions from a practitioner who has been focused on this for such a long time. On another note, was wondering if you are still a big promoter of psychedelics (dmt/ayahausca) especially for helping with trauma/depression. Trying to find new ways to support a few family members (PTSD) where it seems that the traditional (therapy and SSRI's) have not really helped them over ~5 years. As you mentioned previously it helped you a lot with your own growth, but curious why it seems you have covered it less. My presumption is that, you don't want to help it get any more main stream, since many people seem to be using it for the wrong reasons now (i.e. entertainment) . Feel free to remove comment if so, but would appreciate any response. If not, no worries! Keep up the great work, and positively influencing so many. All the best, – Mike

Tim, great interview and Art is fascinating. One thing: your seem to have a time lag between his and your audio tracks, and it sounds like you talk over him at the end of his segments. Might need to adjust the time alignment. Cheers Michael

Taleb next? He wrote the foreward to Art's book:)

Hi Tim, A long time listener here and first time post. As always, I loved the content of this podcast but really struggled with the quality of the audio. I've never noticed this in your other episodes and wanted to leave constructive feedback. Thanks for the work you do.

Very interesting podcast, thanks. I listened to Art on STEMTalk podcast and you covered completely different topics which was great. I don't know if was just me, but the audio seemed completely out of sync at some parts where the questions being asked by Tim were overlapping with the responses. This occurred on the podcast downloaded via the Castro app as well as your streaming link above. Also there was a lot of mic rustling noise on Art's recording. Never mind though, the content was great! Thank you for your thought-provoking content and giving us access to very interesting guests!

I was a little taken aback when he started saying dietary fat leads to a fatty liver. He said it like it's obvious, but this seems to me to be one of those accidental equivocations (i.e. they both have the word "fat"). Can anyone point me to a source that explains the biological pathway of dietary fat to liver fat? I've always heard that fructose in the diet is what leads to (non-alcoholic) fatty liver. The biological pathway is well-understood. Look up the recent paper "Role of Dietary Fructose and Hepatic De Novo Lipogenesis in Fatty Liver Disease" for a full explanation. I've never heard of a biological process that would add fat deposits to the liver from eating (saturated) fat. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Fascinating interview. Well worth the listen. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Great podcast! I had a question that I am sure others will have as well after listening: Art advocates strongly against a high fat paleo diet (ie Keto diet), which is in direct opposition to what people like Dom D'Agostino talk about. Is there information that portends to both being correct? ie If you do X, you can safely eat high fats? Thanks in advance!

Absolutely fascinating! The terminology was way over my head. It may be a turnoff for many but since we’re into personal development and experimentation, we keep an open mind to grow. This is an episode worthy of listening more than once and even better making available a full transcript so we can dig deeper into the scientific terms mentioned. Congrats to both of you. Tim, amazing how you could keep up with everything Art covered. You’re one smart cat. Kudos.

Great interview. Such a brilliant and fascinating guy. The recording quality was off. It consistently sounded like Tim and Art were talking over each other. But regardless the content was pure gold. Thanks Tim and Art!

Tim, love your podcasts but this podcast was frustrating to listen to because it felt like after asking him a question, you impatiently interrupted Art immediately to ask a different question. Made it difficult to listen to and came off to me as a bit rude. I know no rudeness was intended, just wanted to five feedback. Thanks for everything!

Excellent interview. Audio is badly out of sync by the end. Took me a while to work out what was happening. (It made you sound a bit rude, Tim, as if you were talking over Art – just audio drift, I guess.)

In the Art De Vany podcast you made a comment about experimentation with Molly. That comment was of interest because I’ve been pondering fasting and dietary interventions for my dog (a six-year-old Belgian Tervuren). I’ve fed her with fish oil and probiotic/enzyme supplements her entire life. However, I never moved her away from a three-times/day feeding schedule. Now I’m trying to determine optimal fasting and time-restricted eating schedules for both her and me (a 68 year old). I expect to transition her (possibly both of us) to a one meal/day schedule. (NOTE: she’s very food driven and won’t be happy with this) I’d like to hear extended comments (possible a full podcast) on dietary intervention research for our dogs (e.g., health/longevity using different feeding schedules, optimal number of fasting days, dietary supplements). Since we can control our dog’s diet, what should we be doing to optimize the life and health of our beloved companion? (thank you) x ∞ –Jim Williams

Thank you for amazing deep episode Tim and Arthur! I loved the thought about damaged molecules = damaged thoughts. I definitely noticed long time ago that quality of food and anything we consume directly affects the quality of our thinking, more precisely, anything that damages signaling between neurons and other cells will lead to depressive and negative thoughts, anything that damages conduction of electrical signals between cells will lead to depression of self-destructive thought patterns. Looking deeper: society works the same way, anything that damages connections between members of society will lead to degradation of the society through different kinds of crises. On that thought of bio-electricity: since we learn more and more about electrical nature of cell functioning and energy production cycle in mitochondria, do you think reversing aging also has electro-magnetical nature, not so much chemical? Chemical for sure, but as a result of certain electrical activity in the cell? What about recent studies on longevity and telomere length? Length of our telomeres seems to be a good indication of how certain factors of our current lifestyle will affect our longevity, as we change our lifestyle so does telomere length changes accordingly, "letting us know" what's good for our longevity. What are your thoughts, Arthur, on telomeres and longevity? Fatty liver and high fat diet: what about ketogenic diet and its therapeutic effects on overall health and metabolism? Non-alcohol Fatty liver often caused by high triglycerides and high cholesterol that is caused, as recent studies show, not really by fat consumption (at least not by consumption of natural fats) but by overconsumption of refined carbohydrates, of course if fat is consumed on top of high carbohydrate diet that's a different story. What are you thoughts on ketogenic diet as a treatment of many metabolic diseases? What are your thought in general on ketogenic diet? Ketogenic diet and fatty liver?

The mitochondria and anti-aging/Mtor/FOXO discussion was one of the best I've heard. Kudos on a great interview. Can't wait for Art's new book.

Tim, This is awesome. I was reading Art a decade ago, he had a great influence upon me, not just in diet, but in embracing the power law and the stochastic nature of life. He hasn't been as active online in the last few years so it's great to hear from him and great to see him recognized. (And hey, he's a great economist!). Thanks again for good content.

There's a few head scratches in this one that caused me to abandon it half way through. First he says exercise fasted, then goes on to say he eats breakfast 2 hours before training.. But it got much worse when he equated eating fat with fatty liver, which is just so outdated and a complete myth. This is clearly dogma on his part as he's old. You could tell Tim bit his lip there, but it's frustrating when guests are allowed to just provide incorrect "facts" unimpeded. Makes it really hard to appreciate wisdom or advice from someone when they're just blatantly off base on a few things and are zealous about it.

Thank you for all you do. Do you ever transcribe your interviews? I find visual information easier. All good wishes, Anne Kalik Sun Valley, Id

Once I read paleo I was turned off, the human body is not the same as it was then. Mostly vegan here and no health problems at all. Lactose intolerance is why I don't do dairy. As far as eating the body of a dead animal, I'd really have to ask WHY? How gross. My dog loves to eat meat, but I still love him.

What was up with the sound on this episode Tim? Can you see if you can fix the overlap and the delay and re-post? It was very difficult to follow an already dense conversation when much of the content was jumbled and inaudible. Thanks.

What did art mean by "if you see a movie double bill the second week?" That it's an ad movie? I didn't quite understand that part.

I feel like I never need to listen to another podcast ever again. You can eat your brain now Tim.

I loved this podcast, however, I would have loved it more if the audio was better. I'm listening on Podcast addict and Tim's voice is over the top of Art's or there is a lot of feedback. Anyway. I persisted to about half way through and then gave up. Really bummed as I've listened to every podcast. Hopefully this was just my audio player.

Homo Sapiens in S Africa sound like South Island Maori. 600 years eating seals, seafood and occasionally each other (the moa went in the first 100 years); lean, active and healthy. White man shows up 200 years ago with flour and sugar and guess what…

So interesting he have here posted that endurance is not so beneficial almost dangerous, https://web.archive.org/web/20160330072711/http://www.artdevanyonline.com/1/post/2013/05/is-endurance-exercise-really-beneficial.html And then we have Dr. Rohonda Patrick, with a study where it is exactly the opposite: http://www.onlinepcd.com/article/S0033-0620(17)30048-8/fulltext?cc=y= Yoga teacher would say everything in balance 🙂

I hope I'm the only one but it sounds like outta sink mic problems. As a stickler for good audio, I'm sure you did the best you could with what you had. But if there's a chance you get it synced back up, I'd love to hear to hear the remix. Interesting info and guest either way

Sorry to be critical Tim but your interview style leaves a lot to be desired. You really need to learn how to interject. How many times did you ask a question and then speak over the answer. Very hard to listen to. Interesting topic though and great guest.

Hi Tim! I'm a big fan and totally blown away by the content of your podcasts. I'm going to throw something out there for you… Why not have a microphone that are more open (omnidirectional) and gets more of the whole room for settings like this? Then you could walk over to the kitchen and put on a pot off coffee while still talking to your guest. None of the small jokes made next to the mic would be lost. Just a thought! (You should only use it when you're in quite places though because it also brings up the background noise.) I believe that content beats the sound quality any day, so you're fine like it is right now. But if you're looking for improvements? Love your podcast, tank you!

I really like Tim's interview style- he asked many questions like he was reading my mind. I felt humility and curiosity in his style. I wished Tim had asked why Dr. De Vany had stopped selling his supplement Guardian. Was it simply because Dr. Demopoulos had died, or was it due to sub-par quality control in the production of the supplement or what? Also, there is some cognitive dissonance to me on his supplement stance. On the one had he says to live simply and to try to mimic natural processes like working out fasted and getting a good sleep. In that vein, he says that pathways are so complicated we shouldn't think we can control things with rapamycin/metformin- yet he is going to be selling his Guardian supplement soon. Dr. De Vany also said: "…knowledge I had before is out the window." I wish Tim has asked what specifically he had changed his mind about. I am guessing he has changed his mind about prescribing specific amounts of protein to be consumed per pound lean body weight as set forth in his last book. I believe he would say that if you exercise fasted and are eating good quality foods, you can trust your protein sensor to lead you in how much protein to eat (he said that before), and you don't need to hit daily protein targets (that would be the new part- doing away with needing to eat so many grams of protein a day). If you look the latest meal posted on Dr. De Vany's facebook page, there is no way you would feel it contained enough protein to support his lean mass. The difference is he is activating autophagy, so he is recycling the protein within his own body. If you don't do some recycling- your cell quality control program is not being activated. So if you need heaps of protein to keep maintain your optimal body composition, down the road you are going to be have faulty protein transcription with lots of obvious aging and heaven forbid even worse possibilities like cancer. Bottom line- get used to feeling a little hungry- then exercise-then recycle yourself.

Tim, Now maybe you might stack with Steven Gundry? Wondering what may emerge from that cross-pollination of ideas.

Way Too Much Interrupting of Art It seemed like you were too keyed up for this one, brother. Not normal behavior for you in your interviews, this seemed extremely rushed. Your work has enriched my life. Thank you, Tim.

Look out, Tim; here comes the critique sandwich: Fantastic interview with a fascinating person, and clearly a world-class achiever. Regardless of some of the more controversial statements he may have made (see the comments from others), there is no disputing the drastic superiority of his health, mental faculties, and personal accomplishments relative to the typical person of his age. Critiques: as others have already pointed out, the mechanics of listening to this episode were challenging. The first obstacle was the intermittent audio recording of your guest. I don't know if there were technical issues with his mic, or if he was moving around (or both). The second obstacle was that you seemed to interrupt him quite a bit; usually right at the apex of the point he was about to make. It seems logical to me that the in-person format would be more interactive and you would have a greater tendency to jump in; whereas, the remote audio-only format forces you to listen for your guest to finish their statement before speaking. In your defense, I think you have historically walked a great balance between letting your guest speak, yet still leading the conversation. Today was just not your best day on that front, but learn from it and move on. It also seemed that Art likes to pause for a bit before responding to a question, which is probably a sign that he is really contemplating his answer. That is a good thing overall, but is not like the pacing of your typical guest. I can't say enough about how impressive this interview was to me. I was not previously familiar with Art, but as a man fully immersed into middle age, I am very compelled to look further. Thanks again, Tim; and keep up the great work!

Earlier in the podcast Art talked about the danger of eating too much fat. He said it would cause a fatty liver. Then later you asked him if he thought any of the diets were over hyped or wrong. I thought he would slam the high fat diets, but he didn't. Is that because Paleo is a high fat diet itself? It is a treat to listen to someone that is actually older than myself. Something that is more and more harder to find these days.

I learnt so much in this episode, and have noticed how the repetition of bio-chemical discussion in fitness episodes is an education in itself (…and so quite happy to keep clicking and buying selectively from links!).

I love Tim's stuff and have listened to almost every episode. I can't help but express some disappointment here. This is the first episode I have stopped listening to (after 51 minutes!). The quality of the audio was (very) poor and Tim kept interrupting. It was really confusing and made the conversation difficult to follow. I also got the sense that Tim was less interested and more frustrated in the way he was responding and interjecting. It was also very technical and specific from the word go and seemed a bit random, without giving us a more general idea from Art of what his overall message is. He clearly has some really interesting insight, but I felt a little frustrated that it wasn't being communicated as efficiently as it could be. As I say, I love Tim's work but just want to give some constructive feedback. The difference in quality between this and the Japanese knife episode from the other day (which I loved!) is stark. Both in the quality of audio, substantive line of questioning which was both informative but accessible and Tim's manifest and contagious excitement and interest. It is a shame that this one was a little dissapointing, because so many of Tim's episodes don't seem to have Tim in them any more- they are take 2's- so I get excited when I see a new episode that has Tim in it. Alas, the podcast is great and I'm looking forward to, and grateful for, more great interviews to come!

Any chance you can republish this with better audio sync Tim? I stopped half way through because I found it too frustrating

Audio broken, can't listen to it it like this. Please fix. Loving your work!

Thank you Tim, great episode with Art De Vany, (I'm new to fastening, but love the benefits) and love your new book Tools of Titans, great stuff. Avril

no comment on Art. I wondered if you have any info on restoring hair loss. We have the same haircut. Blessings

Hi Tim, et al– Are transcripts of the podcasts typically available? Lots of interesting topics and great guests, but I generally prefer reading the material quickly, rather than sitting through a podcast. Thanks in advance…

Please stop interrupting your guest's train of thought =(

Tim Longevity topic is a great subject. But a podcast on how your different guests deal with their inevitable death and mortality would be fascinating. It is great to live an extra 10 to 50 healthy, active years but in the time scale of the universe this is miniscule. How do your guests deal with the certainty of their upcoming deaths (especially your older guests) while living happily as possible. Perhaps denial, live in the moment Buddhist way, Seneca way of not pursuing worry or some other way. I hope not by living through your children since they will be gone soon also. 50 years of healthy extra life is great but somewhat meaningless compared to being dead for 'billions and billions of years' (Carl Sagan.) Does not have to be a downer podcast. Just would be interesting to see how these diverse intelligent guests cope with their mortality. Todd

Interesting podcast as always. There are problems though with audio quality that are distracting

Unable to find the video Arthur De Vany mentions in the podcast about Economics of uncertain events (Hollywood economics) at the very end of the podcast. Did anyone find it?

So on the previous episode, Flaherty espoused and emphasized the concentric movement (with regard to dead lifts, in particular, suggesting to lift and drop, thereby foregoing the eccentric); and now we have Art suggesting nearly the opposite emphasis?? Maybe I glossed over the specific training objectives, e.g. raw power output of muscle (vs) resulting composition of tissue especially to promote longevity… but alas, it left me scratching my head. I'm turning 39, and so I'm interested in things that preserve and improve my power output ("of course I'm still a formidable athlete!!" {battle cry}), but, sigh, also interested in forward looking longevity to keep me going another 60, 70, 80? years 🙂 How about a follow up episode with both guests to pursue some reconciliation of these advices 😉

Hi Tim–Great guest—audio issues be damned. Art may command 8-10 pages in ToT part deux–hell maybe an entire section. Thanks for continuing to introduce your fans to wonderful 'Titans' not found on the beaten path. The more obscure the guest, the more me likes.

Great episode, Tim and Dr. De Vany. I have a question about Dr. De Vany's comment(s) that basically suggested how harmful jogging is to stem-cells and overall maintenance of health. Can anybody comment on this? Thank you!

Tim – Your podcast and books have been favorites of mine for a while now. Having read the 4 Hour Body – I am interested in your opinion of Art's approach listed on the site below. It differs from the slow carb slightly and I am curious if you have updated your own opinion. https://web.archive.org/web/20130911071747/http://artdevanyonline.com/1/post/2013/05/how-i-dropped-to-56-body-fat-and-gained-muscle-part-1.html

Great interview Tim. Art is truly a remarkable human being. Like he said, he is a living example of his own teachings and principles. If anyone can look as good as he does at his age then it means what he prescribes, works. A couple of comments overall: 1. While the audio was a bit challenging, it wasn’t so bad that I couldn’t make out what was being said. Surprised at the critical response. I guess when you operate one of the top podcasts in the world the margin for error is really low. 2. If you listen to Dom, he does say that the more normal way to eat is the Paleo/low carb diet since the Ketogenic diet is quite difficult. Also, if you hear what Dom said about his daily eating routine, there are only two real meals breakfast & dinner. He has breakfast and then sips coffee (with butter/MCT) till dinner. For a guy his size, that is quite limited eating. So in essence he is not overloading with fat. And he himself said that the laws of thermodynamics come into play with keto – if you eat more, keto diet, you will gain weight – and that excess consumption, fat included will increase fat content in the body. 3. Tim – can you write a blog post on supplements especially BCAA and how much quantity is advisable. Art advocates BCAA – but how does one measure how much to take.

Melatonin… I take to keep my brain…? Art did not complete this sentence and I really want to know his belief about what melatonin does for his brain. Please share. I have a hunch that installing this belief in my pre-sleep process will help to keep my brain young.

Very interesting Art eats breakfast 4 hrs pre workout and then does not eat for 4 hours after workout. Quite different than Rhonda Patrick's circadian-driven timed eating working out fasted, and including coffee as breaking the fast. I've tried Art's method and am moving to Rhonda's now to see which works for me better.

I loved this podcast. Brilliant as always. Also a bit frustrating (not the audio, that seemed like a minor detail/fluke – though it oddly activated a LOT of listeners.) My frustration was with the unanswered questions and dismissal of some questions – especially the ones I was interested in (ha ha) of course!-) For instance, Tim asked about breakfast and Art sort of dismissed the question and said "whatever my wife puts in front of me." Seemed odd given how important food is to his approach to longevity. Same for the question about workouts…. the right questions were asked … he just did't seem to want to answer .. I know he said he goes by feel each day but he clearly has a specific approach beyond negatives. Perhaps one to listen to a second time. I'll admit part of this is me wanting info to be bottom-lined or dumbed-down for those of us (me) who are not knowledgable about the science.

I loved the brief discussion on depression and how to help it. I've suffered from clinical depression since my late teens (now 45). While I do have a decent handle on it, it still rears its ugly head from time to time. Loved to hear the affects of being out in nature (already knew this – and I do feel best when outdoors – but it was great to have it reaffirmed), but found it interesting about "starving" the depression. I'm also a lifelong fitness fanatic, so that part I have as well, so I may delve a little more into the fasting portion. BTW, you mentioned Art's Facebook page, but I'm not finding an active page for him. I'm 3/4 of the way through the podcast so this might be discussed when you talk about him discontinuing his blog. Many thanks Tim! xo

'embrace the variance and seize the opportunity' – this is one of my favourite quotes from all the podcasts. Something that can be applied almost everywhere, and especially to business.

I was curious if anyone could clarify what Art was saying about fasting for four hours after workouts? I have been waiting an hour because that's what I believed to be the conventional wisdom.

I believe this is the second guest I heard talking about fasting helping with regenerating cells. My question, is there a test that we can take to see that this is actually happening? It would be interesting to test to see the length of fasting that would be best.

Here will I be able to get to this podcast's transcription please….

Hi Tim – Thanks, I was so interested in this podcast – listening to it again now – and am particularly concerned to get to the bottom of a couple things. Art made a couple statements about eating fat but did not provide any information about the sources of this information: 1) if you eat a lot of fat you'll get fatty liver; 2) if a stem cell encounters fat in tissue it will develop into adipose tissue instead of muscle (or whatever). I'd like to know if this is hypothesis or if there is data supporting it – and how conclusive? It seems like the comments below have largely addressed point 1 but not so much point 2. Re point 1 it's an interesting debate and definitely an important area for further research – both personal and medical – in my view. I ask because I am gluten sensitive and lactose intolerant and have adopted a relatively high fat, low carb diet, while trying to increase my veg intake as much as possible and decrease meat and eliminate processed food. But, of course, I'm now concerned about the fat intake…especially as I'm a moderate drinker. Love your podcast and other work!

Thank you for a really interesting and thought provoking podcast. Please could I just clarify Art's thoughts on jogging as a form of exercise, thank you

You've been putting out incredibly valuable work so far Tim. I'm pretty sure it's only the tip of the iceberg compared to what you'll do in your lifetime. Your efforts are much appreciated.

I think some of Art's answers regarding quantity, makeup and timing of exercise, fasting and eating can be mis-interpreted without context. I believe Art takes a generally randomized and intuitive approach to meal and exercise timing, quatity and makeup, So, when Tim asks his usual questions about meal and workout scheduling, they don't really fit with Art's intuitive approach. For example, I don't think Art could tell you today about what his workout or meal timing will be next Tuesday. He'll figure that out when the time comes.

Tim, Art, Do you have recommendations or are aware of research on slowing down age related muscle loss in very old people (e.g. nonagenarians)? Would amino acids or any other supplements be helpful? Thank you

What time of day does Art take Melatonin. If it is for different reasons than assisting sleep, there would be some concern with taking it in the morning and disrupting sleep/wake cycle. What other (non-RX) medications are you currently taking that are for reasons other than typically used (i.e. "off-label)?

Hey Tim, I have been appreciative of your work for some time now. This is one of my favorite episodes. Is Art featured in Tools of Titans? Have you ever considered writing a book titled, "Tools of Chef Titans?" The first actionable advice I took from this podcast has been decreasing my meal intake to twice a day. I notice 10 Key Benefits Here: Saving Money Saving Time Spent Harvesting Food Saving Time Spent Preparing Meals Improving Health Increasing Popular Adoption of Arts' Strategies A Twice A Day Meal Menu Supplements To Include In Meals Saving Money Harvesting Sustainable Sourcing Wisdom How does this sound to you Tim? Thank you, Matthew

I took a look at the excerpt "Our paleolithic ancestors did not suffer from heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, or obesity." and I thought of Nassim Taleb. We only know what we have found and science searches under a little light when it goes searching. While it's likely even 200 years ago that there was hardly any diabetes or obesity, I do question the statements on high blood pressure and heart disease. How many ancient bodies have been dug up that we know this for certain? What little physical knowledge we may have, no one would openly state for certain that it is enough data to make a definitive statement. The Ancient Egyptians suffered from heart disease and likely high blood pressure. Cancer is millions of years old but it is also treated as a disease of modern civilization. If are paleolithic ancestors did not get heart disease, high blood pressure or cancer, one assumes they only died from starvation, infection and other animals.

Lots of great information, and huge fan Tim. I'm also a huge fan of John Kiefer and pro bodybuilder Ben pakulski. I would love to hear a podcast with both of them, and hear what they have to say about this podcast. They're both Premier experts in the fields discussed in this podcast, and I think they could further elaborate on things that all of the listeners would really enjoy. I was contemplating something after listening, and I would love to see some research on the idea, because it could possibly radically change a lot of theories and/or take them in new directions for the benefit of us all. As someone who excelled at science in school, and continue to be drawn to anything scientific that can be presented with an overwhelming amount of information using the TRUE scientific method, I am presented with a major problem that seems to be yet unanswered. I have not read the research myself, however it seems like there is one variable that has been left out of all of the research, and everyone is using a certain assumption that can skew the results and provide false hypothesis, which then leads to a fad, which soon turns into scientific fact, based on nothing more than a few articles in a prominent magazine for example. It would appear that in all of the research being done, everyone is automatically assuming that mankind has evolved over millions of years, and that this is a scientific fact that should not, or cannot be refuted. Without getting into a creation versus Evolution debate here, I think anyone who presents himself as a true scientist and researcher would agree that no Theory or hypothesis is complete if even one variable is left out of the equation,am I correct? Not to discount anything in this podcast or any of the profound research out there that has been going on that's benefiting all of humanity, but a portion of that humanity believes that mankind is at most, six to eight thousand years old. How might all of this research being done change, if at all, if you shrink the timeline down to 8000 years? I fully expect to get berated by this comment, however I know that everyone in this forum is mature enough to agree that looking at things from a purely scientific and mathematical standpoint, there is logic in my reasoning. Today we think we're right about something, about so many things, but instead we should be thinking differently. We should instead think that we are often wrong about many things, like he says in the podcast, we're usually wrong about 50% of the time, we just don't know which 50%. In that line of thinking, tomorrow we will be slightly less wrong than we were today, next year we will be slightly less wrong than that, and 10 years from now, we will be even less wrong than that. Where you assume you are wrong about something, you continue to grow. I'm not picking a side here, I'm just saying all variables need to be examined. Keep up all the great work Tim and art, always a pleasure. Ken

I'm in the minority here but I usually love Tim's podcasts no matter what the guest are but this one was a little tough to sit through. Besides the audio issues, it was way way too clinical. Hard to pay attention to unless you're a biology geek. I admire the guest for what he has done, but wish the material was presented more layman

One of the seminal articles on negative training, by Arthur Jones in 1972: [Moderator: link to PDF download removed.] From a bodybuilding (hypertrophy) perspective, one can get everything one needs from negative-only training. From a conditioning perspective, however, negative-only training is vastly inferior to conventional training because–as Jones notes–"assuming the weight [is] the same in both cases, a negative workout involves only about 14 per cent of the work of a similar positive-negative (normal) workout. THUS – even if the negative workout uses twice as much weight as a regular positive-negative workout, it follows that the actual work of the negative workout is only about 28 per cent of the work of a regular workout." It would seem to me–therefore–that it would be particularly important for the elderly–who face greater "entropic pressures" than the young–to train in conventional high-intensity style rather than trying to reduce the "metabolic conditioning" aspect by skipping the positive phase–OR else to do "negative-accentuated" training within the context of negative/positive training on machines such as X-Force or ARX.

Hi Tim. Great podcast – I especially enjoy these ones about anti aging prevention. However, it would be great to get a clear diet and workout program/guideline targeted for women. Also, I am having a very hard time figuring out if eating red meat is good or bad? Keep up your amazing work! You Rock! Thanks

Art — here is an interesting video for you to watch re: saturated fat. Lots of studies referred to here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc1XsO3mxX8

It would seem a lot of his "evidence" is backed by articles, books, theories and opinion. Not a lot of credible sources. Claims like "3 meals per day will make you fat" do not sound like someone who looks at proper research.

Hi I was wondering if someone could help me be a little more knowledgable on 3 topics discussed in this book. 1) fasting after a workout 2) mTor 3) IGF-1 1. So Art talks about fasting up to 4 hours or more after a workout in order to flush out any old proteins in the body before eating his dinner. What would be the best options for someone who old can train in the evenings around 7/8pm. Would you wait till like 11pm/12am to eat a meal right before sleep or wait until breakfast the next morning and maybe take some BCAA right before bed? Either sound like terrible options to be honest. I currently fast until around 1/2pm eat my first small meal of the day and then eat my larger evening dinner postworkout. So I just want to know what's best to do? I also read a book called Better Than Steroids and the Dr in that claims the most critical time is to invest 30/40g protein immediately after the workout? 2) mTor, Art said it's bad if you activate too much mTor in the body so what can be done to reduce the amount of activation taking place as bodybuilding/ strength training which is meant to be good for you activates mTor in the body? Does fasting help or play any part in reducing this, what else can be done to help without taking the supplements mentioned that suppress your immune system also. 3) IGF-1, again apparently had to produce too much in the body but it is activated when strength/ resistance training. And then Art said his natural levels are very low but he gets it locally which I assume means he's injecting IGF-1 from an external source into his body. So my question is why is it bad to naturally have high levels but okay to inject locally? Any information or guidance on this topic would be super helpful and greatly appreciated. Thank you, Roberto P.S. sneak a 4th point in because…why not? He mentioned that high fat diet is bad for you because it causes a fatty liver. So what about all the hype around ketogenic diet as that is a high fat diet that is supposed to be super beneficial for the body?

Hi, Is it true that certain kinds of meat protein are more harmful and cause faster aging? This article says Pork meat is the worst. 1) A pig doesn’t have any sweat glands. Sweat glands are a tool the body uses to be rid of toxins. This leaves more toxins in the pig’s body. 2) A pig digests, whatever it eats (everything it can find by the way), very quick. Scientists have founded out that for this reason many of these toxins remain in their system to be stored in their fatty tissues. 3) Pigs carry a variety of parasites in their bodies. Some of these parasites are difficult to kill even when cooking. 4) Pigs are primary carriers of many viruses, like the Hepatitis E virus (HEV), Nipah virus, the Menangle virus and many more. Eating anything with so many toxins is bound to cause more aging than other high animal protein foods. [Moderator: article link removed.]

So much information in one episode. It was like being the fly on the wall listening to 2 intelligent men talk about life hacks. Thank you and Congrats on a great job!!!

Anyone else re-listening to this section on not getting sick?

The sun plays a major role in prematurely aging our skin. Other things that we do also can age our skin more quickly than it naturally would.

Hello, You have written an awesome article, you have amazing tips for reversing aging exercise and I appreciate your work and thank you.

Congratulations Tim , the best podcast you've ever done, thank you.

I'd have to check, but I thought Dom mentioned using ketosis to treat Fatty Liver on his original episode. This has me slightly confused as well, but I really have no knowledge of Fatty Liver at all.

I don't know if a high-fat Paleo diet = a Keto diet. I certainly wouldn't see them that way, but they would be similar. With that in mind, it could just be bad to try and mix them (ie a high-fat paleo diet) than do either individually.

I was really quite shocked to hear Art say that as well. I was diagnosed with a fatty liver in March of 2016, as well as being prediabetic. I've been on a whole foods based ketogenic diet since that time and it has not only completely reversed the fatty liver, but my fasting glucose is generally 72-76 (4.0 – 4.2). I suppose it should take away from the rest of the content of this podcast, but hearing him state that dietary fat clearly causes fatty liver (and adipose accumulation) made me think that he was about to state that dietary cholesterol cases heart disease. That was the thinking 30-50 years ago….

I agree. This idea runs counter to everything I've read about non-alcoholic fatty liver. His idea implies that those following a ketogenic diet should develop fatty liver disease. I don't believe this notion is supported by fact.

Same thoughts and unfortunately takes away from everything else he said. Not much Tim can do though, if he tells him he's wrong then that's going to impact the whole interview in a negative way

Studio is trying to get as much upfront money as possible before bad reviews and impressions stop people from seeing it

I was wondering the same. I am using Overcast and thought the audio issues were related to the that. Some parts of the audio went low(or 'in) or a little inaudible. Granted, this is only small parts of the audio. Nonetheless, this is a great podcast. Heard of Art from Econtalk previously. Good stuff.

I have to concur, as I was actually rather put off by it. In fact, it resembled the podcasting style of another person who will go unnamed (regularly referencing b & p) that I find very arrogant and unlistenable. I'm actually more confused b/c you said you were there together, so I'm not sure why it sounded like you were talking over him. There seemed to be lots of nuggets that he was going into that got cut off. Awesome content, but it felt wrong to listen to.

I was also wondering why he calls it training fasted if he eats breakfast before?…

he said don't add fat because there is enough fat in modern meat. he used olive oil sparingly. he clarified his fatty liver stance yesterday on his fb page.

I noticed that as well. More so mid-way through.

Same issue with Apple podcasts. At first I was wondering why Tim kept interrupting. He's usually not so rude. 🙂 Then I realized it must be something like the mics being out of sync by a few seconds.

Totally agree with this comment.

I'll echo the confusion of several other here, and say that Art's matter-of-fact contention that high-fat diets will lead to fatty liver is counter to both current research and countless anecdotal n=1 experiments. I'll admit I don't fully understand the mechanism cited as I don't have a biochemistry background, but a plausible mechanism doesn't necessarily mean it's true in reality. In the meantime, Dom D’Agostino should be dropping dead any day now. And so should I for that matter. But not only am I not dead, but every health marker has improved since going Keto. According to Art's logic, we should soon be seeing hordes of people with low triglycerides, improved HDL/LDL markers, low inflammation markers, and excellent body composition, somehow also developing fatty liver. Tim did indeed bite his lip, but I think he could have at least asked in a non-confrontational manner his thoughts on ketogenic diets and their positive impact on many people, Tim included (didn't he eliminate Lymes symptoms by going Keto?). Frustrating interview for me.

Of course the human body isn't the same as then, but it hasn't had enough time to adapt in 10,000 years since agriculture developed. Some adaptation to be sure (lactose toleration, etc.), but arguably not as much as people think. Humans are genetically omnivorous carnivores, and are poor converters of many plant-based nutrients to boot. For example, many people can't convert beta-carotene to retinol (vitamin A) very well, or even at all in some cases. Many can't convert plant-based ALA Omega-3's to EPA and DHA very efficiently either. Dietary cholesterol and saturated fats are needed for cell wall formation and hormone production, and while the body can produce its own cholesterol in the absence of a dietary substrate (as would be the case with a vegan diet), my guess is this isn't optimal. I went mostly vegan for a year (carefully researched and supplemented), and had to stop due to health issues. I'm now healthier than at any point in my life after going mostly ketogenic and Paleo. You may be a genetic outlier, or you may develop problems down the road. Hopefully the former.

Hey Ben, I would love to hear you chime in on Arts point that eating a lot of fat causes fatty liver. That notion obviously goes against a HFLC diet which you and many others promote. A little clarity would be hugely helpful.

Art De Vany here. Let me take responsibility for the audio quality. I can't sit still and I move around a lot, in and out of microphone range.

The knowledge is still valuable and basically unchanged. There is simply a lot more molecular and genetic based knowledge to add to the validity of my earlier views. Remember, I always said that evolutionary conserved pathways are what we express when we do the things that are similar to what our ancestors did to survive the Ice Age. Glutathione has little to do with mTOR and is definitely not an mTOR blocker as is true of reseveratrol and rapamycin. It does enter the nucleus when the cell begins to replicate at the G1 phase to protect the DNA at that crucial time. But, the big deal is that new research shows that glutathione is crucial in cell signalling, first be being a signaling molecule itself, but also by undoing disulfides to alter ROS signaling. It is not merely an antioxidant it sets the balance of cell signaling. The company is now in new hands with pristine quality control. Guardian has the only glutathione that is stabilized against degradation and that enters cells through out the body, in most tests within 30 minutes. There is a complex process through which glutatione prevents the development of insoluble protein complexes in the mitochondria; these enter the lysomes and cannot be degraded. The result is deficient autophagy and protein homeostasis. This is the most commonly shown process identified in aging; accumulation of lipofuscin in cells and amyloid and tau protein tangles in Alzheimers. Your bottom line is the best summary I have heard.

Paleo was not a high fat diet; that is because research shows and common sense shows that ancestral humans had little access to fat. Wild animals contain 4% body fat, so brain and bone marrow were essential to large brained humans. Moreover, research shows that a high fat diet is the experimental innovation most often used to make animals and humans fat. Original Paleo was always a low to moderate fat diet ala the Paleolithic Prescription, Cordain's work and his book, and in my own book. Incidently, DHA, a crucial molecule in placental development and big brained infants, stalls mTOR. Funny how many pathways slow or stall mTOR. But, the most important pathways are downstream from mTOR and impinge on transcription and translation of proteins. Transcription, translation, and proteostasis seem to be the crucial processes and they are surely the ones I think about.

The editing in post-production wasn't synced properly. I don't interrupt my guests, alas, but the editing makes it seem that way. Working on it now…

That is correct. Working on it!

Jeff, (my son's name is also Jeff) see this from my Facebook page. Arthur De Vany Ketosis is a state I am in often between meals with my low insulin signaling. The "secret" is low insulin for the most part, not high fat intake. There is no unique ketotic diet; but what they all share in common is low carbohydrate. I believe it was Brownlee who showed years ago that low carbohydrate clears the lipid droplets from the liver in a matter of days. The way to see that is that autophagy is triggered in the liver to consume the droplets. Low insulin signaling in the liver turns on autophagy through FOXO. I would suggest that any ketogenic diet is really a low carbohydrate diet. I lived with dangerous ketosis most of my life with a T1 diabetic wife and son whose ketones were elevated with insufficient insulin and no survival response. They had no need of consuming fat to go into ketosis, they simply lacked insulin.

Came here to ask for advice as to this as well. He is adamant that a diet high in fat will lead to a fatty liver. Is there science to back up his claim? Everything I've heard from ketogenic believers has advised otherwise.

Matt, I believe Ryan is optimizing for relative strength (per lb bodyweight) and power output/ground reactive force, whereas Art is optimizing for functional healthspan and longevity. Not conflicting, just different primary goals.

I was wondering the same thing. Its always been explained that Fatty liver is a result of carb consumption, i.e. how they make goose liver pate by stuffing grains down a gooses throat to intentionally give it fatty liver.

Yes! This was mentioned and never followed up on. He said something like "running is great if you want to kill your stem cells". How do you drop that bomb and not follow up?!?

Paul, my friend, I wasn't aware you were following Tim and his work. Good to "hear" from you this way. Sending love from Germany, Nils [All others: Apologies for my off-topic comment]

I would recommend reading this his book. He puts out a detailed meal plan for 4 weeks.

Great minds think differently.

This should be a t-shirt.

I also have similar questions with the 3rd point Taimur brings up. A quick google search of BCAAs makes it seem that this is only taken by bodybuilders on workout days. Was wondering if this could be supplemented by somebody who does not work out regularly for the benefits that Art brings up.

Runners was compared against the general population. I agree with the outcome that runners live longer than those on a sedentary lifestyle and terrible diet. It is logical to say that runners are more likely to have a better diet and also have higher socio-economic status versus the general population. The study to show the difference, which I believe I have seen, needs to be runners vs resistance (or resistance plus HIIT). I came to the same conclusion as Art a while back regarding the dangers of endurance training and I believe we have heard them previously on Tim's podcast (heart damage, organ damage).

Pretty hard to know concerning the healthfulness of red meat given the wide disparity in views held by a number of very knowledgeable people. The best I've been able to come up with is limited amounts of grass-fed red meat — I currently do about twice per week and a relatively modest serving most times.

As noted earlier in this comments section, I radically changed my diet from a SAD version with a lot of carbs to a whole foods based ketogenic diet, with the end result that I completed reversed the fatty liver condition that I had been diagnosed with (which was basically only one of the many benefits such diet brought about for me). I can't say that low fat doesn't work well for some people as even Peter Attia and other doctors advise that a small percentage of people do very poorly on a ketogenic diet, but for the most part there is just an overwhelming outpouring of testimonial on the internet about people trying a ketogenic diet and having incredible and dramatically positive results. When you search long enough on the internet you can basically find seeming knowledgeable and competent experts supporting almost any dietary/nutritional approach (vegan, fruiatarian, pescatarian, keto, paleo, straight juicing, lectin-reduction focused, etc. not to mention the myths out there (i.e. impossible to gain muscle if you work out fasted, carbs are essential for building muscle, etc.). There is starting to be large number of doctors, researchers and other experts that now support higher fat diets, but the best advice has to continue to be try out the various approaches that resonate with you and then assess your results including your overall health.

In a patient who already has fatty liver, ANY diet that is hypocaloric will result in improvement of said fatty liver. Doesn't matter if the diet is very low fat or very high fat. It's very easy to oversimplify a complex topic such as this. Another example would be "Eating meat will result in worsening of 'bad' LDL cholesterol".

I agree, this one felt choppier than hundreds of others and it felt like that disconnect led to interruptions. Grateful for all content, Tim.

Tatyana, four hours before is the usual case. If I eat later that does not deter me. After all variety is what matters and to exercise one day fully fasted and another day only partially fasted is sensible variety that keeps epigenetic factors from routinizing gene expression.

Bryant and others; excess intake, easy to do on a high fat diet, will lead to ectopic fat in all tissues, which is what lipid droplets in the liver are. The liver is more able than most tissues to accomodate high fat intake, but it then exports fat as LDLDL which enter the portal vein, as they work their way through the circulation, to reenter the liver and then work their way as droppings from the lypmphatic system to accumulate as visceral fat. Moreover, any low carb diet will stimulate ketosis through FOXO and other signals. You are thinking in first order terms and have to take feed backs and second, third order loops into account. I could have made it easy and merely said, as abundant research demonstrates, that a high fat diet is used to make animals and humans fat. Where do you suppose the fat goes when the body can no longer cope? Into other tissues as ectopic fat. The liver is not exempt from that rule. Nor is your brain. I me Dom but did not get a chance to talk much to him. He looks great and I believe he eats a low carb diet. Ketosis is the default metabolic pathway, through FOXO, for survival, low insulin signalling, and brain support through ketosis.

Basically, the first billed movie is lousy and the theater needs support because it is stuck with the movie for the minimum run, which could be as much as 12 weeks. The save the theater from all those empty seats, the studios let the theater add another movie to the bill to gain a bit of revenue.

Thank you for taking the hit, Art, but I think it might have been on my post-production end. Might have an improved version soon. There were some bumps and bonks, but they should be easier to fix than the end product would reflect. We're on it…

Thanks, guys. Seem to have an audio post-production issue with syncing. Looking into it now!

Syncing and other audio issues should now be largely fixed. Thanks for the heads up, guys. Not sure how we missed it. All good!

I believe Art was mostly referring to non-keto high-fat diets (e.g. Paleo, which we discussed), though he might further clarify in the comments here. In the case of carb-dependent, high-fat, I would largely agree. In the case of keto, I have not seen data to suggest that it contributes to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), and one could argue the opposite. I don't think Art is arguing that keto causes NAFLD, but I can't speak for him. [Update: see Art's comment here re: keto as low-carb diet]

Right on. There-in lies (my) conflict. Do I embrace the technique that will keep me young? Or the technique that permits me to claim, stubbornly, that I *am* still young, and want to dunk a basketball when I turn 40 🙂 But also, are there ways to incorporate both into a program (spanning months or years); IOW, can a person reap the benefits of both in a non-canceling way? And if so, what might that look like?

As Andrey (above) pointed out any hypocaloric diet will improve fatty liver (for those with this problem). He may be referring to this study Yki-Järvinen, H. (2015). Nutritional Modulation of Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease and Insulin Resistance. Nutrients, 7(11), 9127–9138. http://doi.org/10.3390/nu7115454. The findings in the abstract are the following: Abstract: Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) covers a spectrum of disorders ranging from simple steatosis (non-alcoholic fatty liver, NAFL) to non-alcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) and cirrhosis. NAFL increases the risk of liver fibrosis. If the liver is fatty due to causes of insulin resistance such as obesity and physical inactivity, it overproduces glucose and triglycerides leading to hyperinsulinemia and a low high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol concentration. The latter features predispose to type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease (CVD). Understanding the impact of nutritional modulation of liver fat content and insulin resistance is therefore of interest for prevention and treatment of NAFLD. Hypocaloric, especially low carbohydrate ketogenic diets rapidly decrease liver fat content and associated metabolic abnormalities. However, any type of caloric restriction seems effective long-term. Isocaloric diets containing 16%–23% fat and 57%–65% carbohydrate lower liver fat compared to diets with 43%–55% fat and 27%–38% carbohydrate. Diets rich in saturated (SFA) as compared to monounsaturated (MUFA) or polyunsaturated (PUFA) fatty acids appear particularly harmful as they increase both liver fat and insulin resistance. Overfeeding either saturated fat or carbohydrate increases liver fat content. Vitamin E supplementation decreases liver fat content as well as fibrosis but has no effect on features of insulin resistance. Note that diets rich in sat fat are particularly troubling. To restate my point below, from my Facebook page, any diet low in calories or low in carbohydrate will reduce liver fat. Low insulin signaling as produced by a low carb diet will quickly remove liver fat. I have a slight problem with eating a high fat diet to promote ketosis. That will happen only when there is low carbohydrate in the diet. As for eating fat to promote ketosis, I fail to see why you would do that. Just exercise or skip a meal and eat somewhat less.

Art, I believe that the scientific literature generally states that there is no consensus on which diet or lifestyle approach is best for NAFLD patients (other than having lowered amounts of carbohydrates is beneficial in almost all cases. Here is one example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4556902/ However, the anecdotal evidence over the past few years has been strongly supportive of a whole-foods based ketogenic diet (and most definitely not hypocaloric) reversing this condition. In fact, studies seem to show that increasing MUFA’s and omega 3’s can reverse or improve NAFLD: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24251710 . Irrespective of same, I’ll stick with my organic cold pressed virgin coconut oil and grass fed butter over Canola oil (which is low in SFA and high in MUFA’s and PUFA’s. While eating a diet high in SFA’s (and about 75% fat overall as a percentage of calories, I’ve managed to completely reverse my NAFLD in less than 7 months, so that’s good enough for me. This diet has also brought about incredible changes to my hair/nails/skin, got rid of psoriasis on my ankle, dropped my fasting blood sugar from 106 to 72, dropped by HS-CRP by over 100%, increased my energy levels, and so much more. But then again, I also eat a lot of vegetables every day and it’s difficult to know exactly what has brought about all of the changes, but I attribute almost all of them to a combination of the high vegetable content and the moderately high level of continuous ketosis. If you are keeping fat at low levels, and considering that one wants to ideally eat enough protein but not too much, all that leaves based on your approach is more carbohydrates. Healthy fats are essential to support metabolism, cell signaling, the health of various body tissues, immunity, hormone production, and the absorption of many nutrients within the body. I think that the literature will continue to show in the upcoming years that that low fat diets have helped to contribute to many of the adverse global health conditions we find presently. That said, you’re doing remarkably well with what you’re doing so no real point for me to try to convince you of anything else to the contrary.

I'd love to check that out but the only FB page I find for Art hasn't been updated since 2015…anyone know what's up with that?

Read the article on my website entitled "The Dark Side of Coconut Oil"…

Hello Art Inspiring talk with Tim. Reading Hollywood Economics and liked the details on directors/ actors. Would you have any stats or correlates with screenwriters? Also, when's your new anti aging book out? Dr. Mishra

Art and Tim, Great podcast packed with tons of useful information as usual. I was wondering why you seemed so concerned about eating too much fat like (coconut oil) which could result in a fatty liver? You mentioned it several times and I wanted to know if a male had a body fat% of around 10 to 12% and ate foods high in fat like coconut oil, avocado, meats etc.. if this should still be a concern? If so would you mind elaborating on this topic more. Thanks

Yes I'm definitley willing to experiment. As obviously aTim has talked about Ketogenic diets and had the great podcasts with Dom talking about the befits as well as the highlights in Tools of Titans. Where is a good resource to get a Ketogenic meal plan? As I think that's where most people would fail. Thank you,

Thanks for the info, I too was deifnitley in the mindset of being pro keto after hearing Tim talk about it along with the great podcasts with Dom and the notes in ToT. Can you recommend a good place to get keto meal plans as I think this is where people will fail, not knowing how to eat properly when on the ketogenic diet. Do you use any type of intermittent fasting? Thank you.