“The first negotiation is really a negotiation with yourself to move from being focused on what I’m right about and you’re wrong about to getting curious about why we see this so differently.”— Sheila Heen
Sheila Heen is a New York Times best-selling author, founder of Triad Consulting Group, and a deputy director of the Harvard Negotiation Project at Harvard Law School, where she has been a member of the faculty for 25 years. Sheila specializes in particularly difficult negotiations, where emotions run high and relationships become strained. She often works with executive teams, helping them to resolve conflict, repair professional relationships, and make sound decisions together. In the public sector, she has provided training for the New England Organ Bank, the Singapore Supreme Court, the Obama White House, and theologians struggling with disagreement over the nature of truth and God.
Sheila is co-author of the New York Times bestsellers Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most and Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well (even when it’s off base, unfair, poorly delivered, and, frankly, you’re not in the mood). She has written for the Harvard Business Review and the New York Times—as a guest expert and contributor to the “Modern Love” column—and she has appeared on NPR, Fox News, CNBC’s Power Lunch, and shows as diverse as Oprah and The G. Gordon Liddy Show. She has spoken at the Global Leadership Summit, the Nordic Business Forum, the Smithsonian, Apple, Google, and Microsoft. Sheila is a graduate of Occidental College and Harvard Law School. She is schooled in negotiation daily by her three children.
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What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.
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Want to hear another episode with someone who understands the value of resisting the victim mindset? Listen to my conversation with Jim Dethmer, in which we discuss coping with stressful and disturbing thoughts, avoiding drama-based conflict in close relationships, becoming emotionally literate, accepting radical responsibility, cocommitment over codependence, and much more.
SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE
- Connect with Sheila Heen:
- Triad Consulting Group
- Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Sheila Heen | Amazon
- Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen | Amazon
- Harvard Memorial Church | Harvard University
- Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Roger Fisher, William L. Ury, and Bruce Patton | Amazon
- Occidental College
- Harvard Negotiation Project | Harvard Law School
- Dysregulation: Definition, Symptoms, Traits, Causes, Treatment | Verywell Mind
- The 6 Things That Predict Divorce | The Gottman Institute
- Anne Lamott on Taming Your Inner Critic, Finding Grace, and Prayer | The Tim Ferriss Show #522
- Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement (BATNA) | Investopedia
- Getting Past No: Negotiating in Difficult Situations by William Ury | Amazon
- Ladder of Inference | Wikipedia
- Moving from Blame to Joint Contribution | Global Leadership Network
- 11 Expert Tips to Stop Being a People Pleaser (with Science) | Science of People
- Study Shows Evidence of Severe and Lingering Symptoms in Some after Treatment for Lyme Disease | Johns Hopkins Medicine
- Imago Relationships
- What is Internal Family Systems? | IFS Institute
- The And Stance: How and Why | Likability Matters, Coursera
- What is “Parts” Therapy? Internal Family Systems Explained | Integrative Psychotherapy Mental Health Blog
- Richard Schwartz — IFS, Psychedelic Experiences without Drugs, and Finding Inner Peace for Our Many Parts | The Tim Ferriss Show #492
- Sheila Heen: How to Use Others’ Feedback to Learn and Grow | TEDx Talks
- Sheila Heen: Blame Absorbing vs. Blame Shifting | Thought Capital
- Jim Dethmer — How to Shift from Victim Consciousness, Reduce Drama, Practice Candor, Be Fully Alive, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show #434
- Karpman Drama Triangle | Wikipedia
- The Conscious Leadership Group
- Rashomon (English Subtitled) | Prime Video
- Shattered Glass | Prime Video
- Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope | Prime Video
- Who was Roger Fisher? [06:35]
- How did Sheila enter the scene with respect to negotiation and conflict resolution, and what did she love about it? [09:13]
- Sheila shares the story about the time she went to renew her passport in Los Angeles and how it informed her contribution to Difficult Conversations. [11:28]
- What are the three categories of difficult conversations, and what is the underlying structure they have in common? [16:13]
- How understanding the underlying structure of these three conversations helps you find your way if one doesn’t go as planned. [25:36]
- How can we convey genuine curiosity in these conversations without unintentionally coming off as condescending? What if this isn’t the first time this conversation has happened and it’s getting heated? [28:25]
- Sometimes the person with whom you’re conversing is just seeing things from a vastly different perspective. Sheila shares a personal story. [38:13]
- When a disconnect like this seems evident, how can each party come to a better understanding of where the other is coming from? [41:45]
- What is a statement against interest, and how can it be used? [46:28]
- A good apology versus a bad apology: what’s the difference? [48:37]
- Rewriting the scripts for bad apologies — particularly when each party has very different ideas about conflict resolution and resilience. [58:00]
- What does it mean to “give voice to the parts?” [1:15:39]
- What are first, second, and third position skills, and what does it mean to step into the third position? [1:16:51]
- The importance of setting expectations about — and learning over time — how the people in your life behave (this includes you). [1:21:22]
- What would Sheila’s best self say to her business partner and co-author in the midst of collaborating on a book’s third edition after a flare-up? [1:22:35]
- In personal and professional relationships, we often have feedback for the other about how we think they need to change. But what if we present obstacles as shared problems? [1:28:09]
- Blame-absorbers versus blame-shifters. [1:30:05]
- Heroes, villains, and victims. [1:34:21]
- Parting thoughts. [1:43:08]
- Additional post-game thoughts from Sheila about the question that plays like background music to many difficult conversations, how to avoid making every difficult conversation a spring cleaning when your relationship simply needs some light spot-dusting, and a 60-day experiment. [1:46:27]
MORE SHEILA HEEN QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW
“Some people have trouble with some conversations, and the same conversation is easy for someone else. And it’s partly because of whatever the story is that you tell about yourself and who you are trying to be.”
— Sheila Heen
“The first negotiation is really a negotiation with yourself to move from being focused on what I’m right about and you’re wrong about to getting curious about why we see this so differently.”
— Sheila Heen
“Part of what I’m listening for in a difficult conversation is I’m just trying to understand what do you see and how do you interpret it? We each have implicit rules about how the world is supposed to work. Do we have different implicit rules here? Then it helps me to put those puzzle pieces on the table and try to fit them together, understanding that some of them just won’t fit. And that’s okay.”
— Sheila Heen
“It’s not just that we have difficult conversations in our most important relationships; those conversations are the relationship. That if we find a way to have them productively or constructively, then the relationship will thrive, whether it’s a personal or professional relationship, and/or is where we start to disengage because you just don’t get it and you won’t listen, and the relationship starts to fray.”
— Sheila Heen
“‘What am I missing?” is actually a great question, partly because they’re going to be so thrilled to be able to tell you. They’re going to take that invitation, but genuinely they can see things that you can’t.”
— Sheila Heen
- Roger Fisher
- Bruce Patton
- Douglas Stone
- John Gottman
- Anne Lamott
- John Richardson
- Donald Schön
- Chris Argyris
- Matt Mullenweg
- Harville Hendrix
- Helen LaKelly Hunt
- Stacy Heen Lennon
- Richard C. Schwartz
- Jim Dethmer
- Akira Kurosawa
- Stephen Glass
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14 Replies to “Sheila Heen of the Harvard Negotiation Project — How to Navigate Hard Conversations, the Subtle Art of Apologizing, and a Powerful 60-Day Challenge (#532)”
I haven’t gotten to listen to this newest podcast yet, but I wanted to say I am truly loving and enjoying the recent interviews with female/non-binary guests. They’ve been incredibly inspiring. Thank you, Tim!
Excellent episode! Just what I needed. If you don’t have time, listen to “Additional post-game thoughts from Sheila about the question that plays like background music to many difficult conversations, how to avoid making every difficult conversation a spring cleaning when your relationship simply needs some light spot-dusting, and a 60-day experiment. [1:46:27]”
Hi there Tim! This has nothing to do with the Podcast (I haven’t heard it yet), but I wanted to contact you in order to give you a gift. It has been months since I wanted to give you something as I feel very grateful for everything you communicate. I’m from Argentina and I stumped upon a video fo yours in Youtube and found out that you drink Yerba Mate regularly. I think you know what the gift may be, please contact me if you want!
Thank you for everything, you help people a lot.
So, Tim, seriously, the long form of your podcasts gets me, so I pick and choose. But you’ve had spectacular guests and interviews that I can’t fault you for it. As one person who has been traumatized with abuse as a child, i have dealt with a ton of fight or flight issues that kept me from getting a lot of my life off of ground, but I am a mother at 45 of a 4 year old, wanting to change the world and I have done a ton of self improvement work but not much therapy (because of trust issues), but I wanted to let you know that this podcast and your real life scenario, touched me. (And I tried Aya and psychedelics with the intention of medicine as younger,, but maybe it’s because I wasn’t guided but found a lot of great other modalities that had helped me Personally later.)
As one who doesn’t have the aptitude to go nine rounds in conversation with my husband who seems so much more adept at conversation than I am. I was able to hear how fatiguing it could be. Personally, I do let the sun go down on my anger and after my morning meditations, I could be able to formulate my thoughts but to know that there is cortisol excaberated in conversation was something I internally knew but needed to hear out loud to just confirm myself. Thank you for what you do.
Personally, I’m working to help kids create a mastermind/think tanks to change the world and could definitely see all that Sheila has written and getting to yes, as a part of the curriculum to help the next generation to get the tools to change the world.
I haven’t gotten to listen to this newest podcast yet, but I wanted to say I am truly loving and enjoying the recent interviews with all that female/non-binary guests. They’ve been incredibly inspiring. Thank you.
What do you think about Kapil Gupta &his views on meditation/meditativeness being more of a side-effect of immersion than a cure?
This may be the best podcast interview I’ve ever listened to, and I’ve listened to many. Sheila Heen is brilliant and Tim’s authenticity is inspiring.
Great episode! I’m looking forward reading the books. I am also thankful to you sharing real-life examples. So useful! I’m looking forward the follow-up 🤗 (I was surprised NVC was not mentioned though)
Dear Tim, as usual , great show;
Now setting off on a new adventure to write a book on a agile complementary practice; I want to follow the idea that this is based on “the collective intelligence using it” and humbly admit that i am collecting the ideas and giving credit where it’s due;
I was inspired by the Tribe of mentors book, so i want to make that transparent and was wondering if you consider replying to 3 question/share an opinion, response that i will publish in the book
Game changer! Thank you! I think this will quickly become my most shared podcast. View altering content. It will change how I communicate in work and life. I look forward to diving into her books. Grateful for all you bring to the table!
Hi Tim, for a different perspective/approach on your communication with your partner try the book “I Hear You” by Michael S, Sorenson.
“What am I missing?”
I very much enjoyed the entire podcast, and have one specific comment to add to the conversation. This is in response to Tim’s question about how to deal with his partner wanting to discuss big topics right before bed. It wasn’t until I turned about, oh, maybe 30, so let’s say about 8 years into my relationship with my now husband of 23 years, that I realized that when I felt the pressing urge to discuss “our relationship” right before bed the better thing for both of us for me to do was to run a hot bath, get in and read Vogue magazine. If the conversation was still important to me, it would be there in the morning, and if it was just me having a low evening, or PMS, then better to veg out with some chewing gum for the mind than raise a stink over something. The only catch here, which I’m sure you’re already aware of, is that it’s imperative for each of us to do our own self-censoring/self-regulating. This will bomb if the next time your partner wants to have a serious talk at night you suggest to her that she’s just feeling “hormonal” and should light a candle and take a bath instead. 😉