Tim Ferriss

May 8, 2024

A Strategic Deep Dive on TikTok, The Boiling Moat of Taiwan, and China’s Next-Gen Statecraft — Matt Pottinger, Former U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor (#736)

“As a former Marine, Deputy National Security Advisor, I was juggling the most serious national security threats facing the United States. I think TikTok is near the top. Near the top, okay? Think for a moment how preposterous it is that we are in a situation where the main platform is controlled by a hostile totalitarian government. The main platform by which a whole generation of Americans communicate and acquire their news.”
— Matt Pottinger

Matt Pottinger is a distinguished visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution and chairman of the China Program at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

Matt served as U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor from 2019 to 2021. In that role, Matt coordinated the full spectrum of national security policy. Before that, he served as the NSC’s senior director for Asia, where he led the administration’s work on the Indo-Pacific region, and in particular its shift on China policy.

Before his White House service, Matt spent the late 1990s and early 2000s in China as a reporter for Reuters and The Wall Street Journal. He then fought in Iraq and Afghanistan as a U.S. Marine during three combat deployments between 2007 and 2010. Following active duty, Matt ran Asia research at Davidson Kempner Capital Management, a multi-strategy investment fund in New York.

Matt’s new book, The Boiling Moat: Urgent Steps to Defend Taiwan, is coming out July 1st.

Please enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, Audible, or on your favorite podcast platform. Watch the interview on YouTube here.

Brought to you by Wealthfront high-yield savings account, Helix Sleep premium mattresses, and Shopify global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business.

The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

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#736: A Strategic Deep Dive on TikTok, The Boiling Moat of Taiwan, and China’s Next-Gen Statecraft — Matt Pottinger, Former U.S. Deputy National Security Advisor (#736)

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What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

Want to hear another episode that examines the intricacies of US-China relations? Listen to my conversation with Niall Ferguson here, in which we discussed keeping the Cold War II from heating up into World War III, life under fatwa, understanding history to change the world for the better, an appetite for tweed, and much more.

#634: Niall Ferguson, Historian — The Coming Cold War II, Visible and Invisible Geopolitics, Why Even Atheists Should Study Religion, Masters of Paradox, Fatherhood, Fear, and More

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

SHOW NOTES

[05:55] Bao Tong’s calligraphy.
[08:20] Matt’s decision to study East Asian languages.
[10:13] Studying with Perry Link and the challenges of learning Chinese.
[12:19] Tips for learning Chinese and other languages.
[17:17] How TikTok has been weaponized by the Chinese Communist Party.
[20:58] The origins of TikTok and its obfuscatory ownership structure.
[26:30] How sowing chaos in the West serves the CCP’s aims.
[31:37] “Politics stops at the water’s edge.”
[33:11] How should the US rein in TikTok’s influence over its population?
[40:23] The significance of Taiwan geographically, ideologically, and economically.
[49:59] The semiconductor industry in Taiwan and its global importance.
[52:07] Deterring China from attacking or coercing Taiwan.
[58:51] Cultivating social depth in Taiwan.
[1:01:09] Guessing at Xi Jinping’s timeline.
[1:05:33] Demonstrating the will to match the capacity of following through.
[1:07:47] Matt’s top priorities for stemming Chinese ambitions.
[1:10:15] Architects of chaos.
[1:14:21] Staying alert against informational warfare and united front activity.
[1:21:00] Countering China’s influence on its Western-based citizens.
[1:25:05] Checkers vs. Go.
[1:26:56] How can the US reassert its position as a beacon of democracy?
[1:33:05] What prompted Matt to join the Marine Corps at age 32?
[1:38:50] Getting in shape for the occasion.
[1:40:45] Leadership lessons learned.
[1:46:59] The Boiling Moat, the importance of public service, and parting thoughts.

MORE MATT POTTINGER QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW

— Matt Pottinger

“We should be issuing a smartphone to every student who arrives from an authoritarian country in the United States, make it a university program to say, ‘This is your freedom phone. You can put any apps on here that you want. Don’t put any Chinese apps on here. Don’t put TikTok on here. They’ll see everything. Don’t put WeChat, Weixin” — the Chinese app which is used also as a surveillance tool — ‘Don’t put that on here. Put all your free society things onto this phone and then know that your other one is being monitored by Beijing, by the party.’ So we should be doing much more for the Chinese diaspora that comes here to study. We should be giving them a shot at actually breaking free from this bubble of surveillance and censorship that follows them when they come to the United States. We should be breaking out of that.”

— Matt Pottinger

“Vandenberg had a famous line. He said, ‘Politics stops at the water’s edge.’ It means we can have bitter debates internally between left and right, Democrats, Republicans, independents, Trump, Biden, but when it comes to our national interest, there must be a general consensus that prevails that we are on the same team and that there needs to be some predictability and continuity in our policies.”

— Matt Pottinger

“The Marine Corps talks a lot about both physical courage but also moral courage. So moral courage is more important. It’s this idea that you will do the right thing when no one’s looking, the idea that you will sacrifice yourself and not your integrity or your honor, but your position, in order to make sure that the right thing gets done, even when it exposes you to ridicule.”

— Matt Pottinger

“Public service is one of the best mistakes I stumbled into in my life. I joined the Marine Corps at 32, and I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything.”

— Matt Pottinger

PEOPLE MENTIONED

Comment Rules: Remember what Fonzie was like? Cool. That's how we're gonna be — cool. Critical is fine, but if you're rude, we'll delete your stuff. Please do not put your URL in the comment text and please use your PERSONAL name or initials and not your business name, as the latter comes off like spam. Have fun and thanks for adding to the conversation! (Thanks to Brian Oberkirch for the inspiration.)

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Iwona

1 year ago

Painful to listen to. Does this guy really believe in all he is saying? Tim, why are you spreading the American propaganda?

Ian

1 year ago

Reply to Iwona

because he is American and a patriot of his country.

-1

Rugile

1 year ago

As always, very insightful. thank you both.

Tahnee

1 year ago

I’m confused – the irony of someone talking about how a leader who endorses genocide being impossible to make deals with but then speaking pro-Israel with the current genocide of Palestinians?

Ian

1 year ago

In Summary, USA should rule the world, and decide for every country and everyone what is right and what is wrong. Talking about right of “free speech” and “free market”, but if something threatens USA’s interests, then it should be banned. Wow!

Ike Arumba

1 year ago

Tim, are you doing the Lex Friedman thing now and just giving a platform to fascists with no push back? I’ve listened to your podcast for YEARS and I expect better from you. Yes, there are many valid criticisms of TikTok. It’s not a balanced platform for airing every nation’s dirty laundry, but it is airing ours and Israel’s and doing a fine job of it. I would love to have a platform where we can discuss the Uyghur genocide. Perhaps if Meta, Reddit, Twitter, etc actually allowed balanced discourse we woudn’t need TikTok.

Susan

1 year ago

Mr. Pottinger is very well versed on Taiwan and the ongoing threat from China. His views are validated by many other foreign policy expert research and writing on the Pacific Asia region. It’s a complex topic that does require a deep conversation to understand the history and future if the communist global threat. Mr. Pottinger also mentions the influence of lobbyists on the US Congress. This is basically legalized bribery or influence peddling that is very lucrative. Both parties are making money related TikTok, so there is incredible pressure to keep the status quo even if it hurts US National Security and the growing internal division in the US.

And his speculation about a depression is frightening if the semiconductor industry is impacted by a conflict affecting Taiwan. It is amazing US companies have put “ all their eggs in one basket ” and allowed concentration of such a valuable commodity in one place!

Andy

1 year ago

It’s interesting to read the comments here reflecting the idea that the US is a force for good in the world. What Palmerston said still holds true – There are only permanent interests. Nothing is “good” and nothing is “bad”.

Keith

1 year ago

I’m disappointed. I can see the respect you have for Matt but you let him turn your podcast into a propaganda piece. Not pushing back on the warmongering, McCarthyism, and shameless pro Israeli talking points discredits the more insightful parts of your conversation.

Bob

1 year ago

Wow, this was the first time I switched off a Tim Ferriss Episode halfway through. (pretty good run so far!!)
I appreciate getting a range of views and ideas here – this one was too much hyped up, one-sided propaganda. It was actually painful to listen to.

Logan

1 year ago

Disappointed with this. Absolutely no pushback on Israels response to Oct 7? Tens of thousands of civilians dead and this is marketed as “brilliant military strategy” there should have at least been some back and forth it feels dishonest.

Also, there are problems with tiktok yea but I think the people who don’t use it really don’t understand what it’s like to use it. It can be whatever you want it to be and people still have critical thinking skills. I do agree with the point that it should not be control of the CCP though.

AiR Atman in Ravi

1 year ago

Fascinating analysis! Matt Pottinger’s insights on TikTok and the geopolitical dynamics involving Taiwan and China are eye-opening. It’s crucial to understand these complex issues as they shape global statecraft. Thank you for providing such an in-depth and informative read!