Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules (#810)

“A boy’s question of the world is ‘What do you got for me?’ A man’s question of the world is ‘What’s needed here?’”
— Terry Real

Terry Real is a nationally recognized family therapist, author, and teacher. He is known for his groundbreaking work on men and male psychology as well as his work on gender and couples.

His book I Don’t Want To Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression, the first book ever written on the topic of male depression, is a national bestseller. His new book, Us: Getting Past You & Me to Build a More Loving Relationship is a New York Times bestseller.

Terry’s Relational Life Institute offers training for therapists and workshops for couples and individuals.

Please enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, Audible, or on your favorite podcast platform. Watch the interview on YouTube. The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

This episode is brought to you by Cresset prestigious family office for CEOs, founders, and entrepreneurs; Ramp easy-to-use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and more; and Wealthfront high-yield cash account.

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This episode is brought to you by Cresset Family Office! Cresset offer family office services for CEOs, founders, and entrepreneurs. They handle the complex financial planning, uncertain tax strategies, timely exit planning, bill pay and wires, and all the other parts of wealth management that would otherwise pull me away from doing what I love most: making things, mastering skills, and spending time with the people I care about.  Schedule a call today at cressetcapital.com/Tim to see how Cresset can help streamline your financial plans and grow your wealth.

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Want to hear five chapters from the audiobook Fierce Intimacy by Terry Real? Listen here—it will help you identify both your and your partner’s losing strategies in relationships and help you move from disharmony to repair.

What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

• Connect with Terry Real:

Website | Instagram | YouTube | Facebook

Books

• Us: Getting Past You & Me to Build a More Loving Relationship by Terry Real
• I Don’t Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression by Terry Real
• Fierce Intimacy by Terry Real
• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Peter Attia
• Violence: Reflections on a National Epidemic by James Gilligan
• The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler
• Hard-Boiled: Great Lines from Classic Noir Films by Peggy Thompson and Saeko Usukawa

Therapeutic Approaches & Modalities

• Relational Life Therapy (RLT): Terry Real’s primary approach.
• Internal Family Systems (IFS): Mentioned as having some similarities to RLT’s parts work; Terry discusses similarities and differences.
• Men’s Intensive Group Therapy: Run by Terry. Format includes check-ins, emerging themes, and deep trauma work.
• 12-Step Programs (e.g., Al-Anon): Mentioned in context of addiction and support.

Core RLT Concepts & Frameworks

• Three Parts of the Human Psyche (RLT Model):
  • Wise Adult (prefrontal cortex, choosing part)
  • Wounded Child (flooded, emotional part)
  • Adaptive Child (kid’s version of an adult, automatic/knee-jerk responses, self-protection)

• Relational Mindfulness: Core skill of shifting out of the adaptive child.
• Remembering Love: First skill; remembering you care about the person you’re speaking to.
• Miserable Comfortable vs. Happy Uncomfortable: States related to staying in old patterns vs. embracing growth.
• Taking a Position (as a therapist): Contrasted with neutral mirroring.
• Objectivity Battles: Arguments over who is “right” or whose reality is accurate (RLT argues objectivity has no place in personal relations).
• Relational Answer (to who’s right/wrong): Focus on collaborative solutions.
• Repair: Critical process in relationships; a “one-way street” initially.
• Normal Marital Hatred: The idea that it’s normal to go through phases of intense dislike or “hatred” for one’s partner in a long-term relationship.
• Deal-Breakers & Relational Reckoning: A process/question (“Am I getting enough…to make grieving what I’m not getting worth my while?”) to assess relationship viability.
• Preconditions for RLT Couples Therapy: Issues like active addiction, violence, or untreated psychiatric conditions that need addressing before RLT can be effective for the couple.
• Leverage (Negative and Positive): Therapeutic technique to motivate clients.
• Covert Depression (in Men): Depression masked by behaviors like rage, philandering, withdrawal, self-medication.
• Normal Boyhood Trauma (under patriarchy): The trauma of boys being taught to disconnect from vulnerability and emotions.
• Psychological Patriarchy: Traditional masculinity’s impact on individuals and relationships (distinct from political patriarchy).
• Toxic Individualism: Overemphasis on the self at the expense of relational connection.
• One Up / One Down Positions: Dynamics of superiority/inferiority in relationships (builds on Pia Mellody’s work).
• Love Avoidant: A pattern of behavior stemming from early experiences, often involving fear of engulfment.
• Full-Respect Living: Holding others in respect even when disagreeing.
• Poisoned Privilege: The negative impact of entitlement, often seen in “one-up” positions.
• Relational Joy vs. Gratification: Deep, connected pleasure vs. short-term pleasure.
• Loving Power: Asserting oneself while maintaining connection and care for the relationship.

General Psychological & Relational Concepts

• Relational Heroism (coined by Belinda Berman)
• Male Depression (and Overt Depression)
• Couples Therapy
• Codependency (described as “fawn” or “fix” response)
• Fight, Flight, Fawn (stress responses)
• Harmony, Disharmony, and Repair (Ed Tronick’s rhythm of all relationships)
• Dual Diagnosis (e.g., addiction and depression)
• Trauma
• Patriarchy
• Individualism
• Enmeshment
• Polyamory
• Manosphere
• Grandiosity
• Companionable Marriage (as a historical norm)

Organizations & Institutions

• Al-Anon: Support group for families of alcoholics.
• The Meadows: Treatment center where Pia Mellody worked.
• Sounds True: Publisher of Terry Real’s Fierce Intimacy audio program.

Movies & Shows

• The Hurt Locker
• Adolescence
• The Big Sleep

People

• Peter Attia: Doctor, author, friend of Tim Ferriss, mentioned in relation to male depression and his book Outlive.
• Kevin Rose: Friend of Tim Ferriss, mentioned in relation to couples therapy.
• Belinda Berman: Terry Real’s wife, a family therapist, coined “relational heroism.”
• Gregory Bateson: Anthropologist, influential in family therapy, husband of Margaret Mead, known for concept of “humankind’s epistemological error.”
• Margaret Mead: Anthropologist, wife of Gregory Bateson.
• Edward Tronick: Infant observational researcher, known for the “harmony, disharmony, and repair” rhythm in relationships.
• T. Berry Brazelton: Pediatrician and researcher, worked alongside Tronick.
• Sigmund Freud: The father of psychoanalysis.
• James Framo: Considered a father of couple’s therapy.
• Esther Perel: Therapist, mentioned as working with Peter Attia.
• Pia Mellody: Therapist, mentor to Terry Real, influential in 12-step community, associated with The Meadows, concepts like “one up, one down.”
• Riane Eisler: Scholar, author, known for concepts like “power over vs. power with.”
• Carol Gilligan: Psychologist, ethicist, known for work on gender studies (e.g., “the binary,” “no voice without relationship”).
• Olga Silverstein: Therapist, known for “the halving process” (splitting human qualities by gender).
• Keith Richards: Guitar hero.
• Richard “Dick” Schwartz: Founder of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.
• Adolf Hitler: The gold standard of human villainy.
• Erik Erikson: Child psychoanalyst.
• Elon Musk: Mentioned as an example in a discussion about aspirational masculinity vs. relational well-being.
• James Gilligan: Psychiatrist, author of Violence, worked with criminally insane.
• Sam Harris: Neuroscientist, author, podcaster (mentioned for his meditation app).
• Mahatma Gandhi: Political ethicist who led the campaign for India’s independence from British rule.
• Martin Luther King Jr.: Civil rights champion.
• Raymond Chandler: Noir author (The Big Sleep).
• Sam Spade: Fictional detective from Raymond Chandler’s work.
• Humphrey Bogart: Actor.
• Lauren Bacall: Actress.

Relevant Resources

• Terry Real — Breaking the Rules of Traditional Couples Therapy for Superior Results, A Few Frameworks That Work | The Tim Ferriss Show #798
• Is Marital Hate Really “Normal”? | Coveteur
• When to End a Relationship | Terry Real
• Terry Real: Breaking the Cycle of Shame, Anger, and Depression | The Peter Attia Drive
• Quiet Desperation: The Male Manifestation of Depression | Hudson Clinical Counseling
• Terry Real: Gender, Power and Relationships: The Crushing Effects of Patriarchy | Finding Brave with Kathy Caprino
• The Power of Partnership: Riane Eisler’s Gifts to the World Are Needed Now More Than Ever | MenAlive
• Carol Gilligan: Why I Changed My Mind on the Gender Binary | New Statesman
• Masculinity: A Civilization at War With Itself | Imago Relationship Therapy
• Why Do Trans Women Face So Much Violence? | American Civil Liberties Union
• RLT Conference 2025
• Maasai in Tanzania | Minority Rights Group
• Morani: The Warriorhood Tradition of the Kenyan Tribes | Dietmar Temps Photography
• The Great Divide with Terry Real | Making Polyamory Work
• Treating “The Untreatable”: How to Transform Narcissistic Relationships | Terry Real

SHOW NOTES

• [00:00:00] Start.
• [00:05:51] The pumpernickel story.
• [00:09:44] Wise adult, wounded child, and adaptive child.
• [00:11:25] Relational mindfulness.
• [00:12:11] Remembering love.
• [00:13:29] Why do we remain loyal to bad relationships?
• [00:16:58] The RLT stance on taking a position as a therapist.
• [00:18:46] Objectivity battles.
• [00:24:11] Entering into compassionate curiosity about your partner’s subjective experience.
• [00:29:40] Normal marital hatred.
• [00:34:19] Taking the first steps toward repair.
• [00:37:03] Empathizing with someone whose reality doesn’t match yours.
• [00:39:45] Should you stay or should you go? Understanding relational reckoning.
• [00:43:41] Leveraging a resistant partner toward therapy.
• [00:46:03] The preconditions that must be addressed before RLT can be effective.
• [00:48:37] Understanding covert depression in men.
• [00:52:52] Determining underlying depression.
• [00:54:36] Favored modalities for working with trauma.
• [00:55:04] Parsing the patriarchy.
• [00:59:35] Taking care of your relationship’s biosphere without being codependent.
• [01:03:23] Terry’s prescription for overcoming my own faulty childhood templates.
• [01:07:05] Pondering gender expectations and expressions.
• [01:13:06] Were Terry’s distinctly different boys raised similarly?
• [01:15:05] A good Morani vs. a great Morani.
• [01:16:53] The greatest achievement of Terry’s life.
• [01:18:44] Advice for people who want to be better parents than the ones they had.
• [01:21:17] The typical format of Terry’s men’s group therapy.
• [01:23:56] Full-respect living, group guidelines, and boundaries.
• [01:25:07] Comparing and contrasting Relational Life Therapy (RLT) with Internal Family Systems (IFS).
• [01:27:54] Modern relationship challenges — from polyamory to monogamy.
• [01:29:53] The research is clear: Humans are born to be intimate.
• [01:32:16] Toxic femininity and the new world order.
• [01:34:40] Relational empowerment vs. individual empowerment.
• [01:35:45] One up, one down.
• [01:37:50] From grandiosity to baseline: Relational joy vs. gratification.
• [01:43:06] How to learn more about Terry’s work.
• [01:45:16] Recommended reading.
• [01:49:09] Terry’s billboard.
• [01:49:34] Parting thoughts.

MORE TERRY REAL QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW

“A boy’s question of the world is ‘What do you got for me?’ A man’s question of the world is ‘What’s needed here?’”
— Terry Real

“Family pathology rolls from generation to generation like a fire in the woods taking down everything in its path until one person in one generation has the courage to turn and face the flames. That person brings peace to their ancestors and spares the children that follow.”
— Terry Real

“Have the courage to move beyond the defaults you were handed, and do it with help.”
— Terry Real

“Part of the reason why we don’t change is we’re loyal to the relationships that we learn how to be screwed up in. And it feels odd. I say we’re immigrants. We leave the old country and the old people behind.”
— Terry Real

“Enter into compassionate curiosity about your partner’s subjective experience. They’re nuts? Okay, but find out what kind of nut they are.”
— Terry Real

“Repair is a one-way street. … If you have a disgruntled partner, you are at their service. … Somebody comes to the customer service window and says, ‘My microwave doesn’t work.’ They don’t want to hear you say, ‘Well, my toaster doesn’t work.’ They don’t want your excuses. Fix the goddamn microwave. … Put yourself aside and tend to them.”
— Terry Real

“Boys and men get depressed because of what I call normal boyhood trauma under patriarchy. We are taught at three, four, five years old to deny our vulnerability, to disconnect from our feelings, to disconnect from others, all in the name of autonomy. We cut off half of our humanity—the feelings, the vulnerability, connection—really, in some ways, the most rich, nourishing parts of what it means to be a human. And that cutoff, which is imposed on boys, that cutoff is traumatic. And it also renders you isolated and lonely. So there’s a lot of trauma. That trauma becomes depression, that depression becomes acting out or self-medication. And if you really want to heal someone, you hit all three layers. First the defenses, then the depression, then the childhood trauma.”
— Terry Real

“Moving men, women, non-binary folk into true intimacy is synonymous with moving them beyond traditional gender roles, beyond patriarchy. Men have to move into vulnerability and open their hearts. Women have to move into assertion with love—not with harshness but with love. And doing that on both sides moves beyond anything that this culture teaches us. It’s pioneer work.”
— Terry Real

“It absolutely kills me when people describe my work as ‘Terry’s trying to feminize men.’ No, I want whole human beings. I want smart, sexy, competent women. I want powerful, big-hearted, compassionate men. We don’t need to halve ourselves in compliance to the world order. We can be whole.”
— Terry Real

“There’s a saying: ‘Therapists are people who need to be in therapy 40 hours a week.’ I became a professional therapist to heal myself, and then I became a family therapist to learn how to have a relationship.”
— Terry Real

“Not being intimate is as bad for your body as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day. This is hard, black and white research. We are born to be intimate. Moving beyond traditional gender roles is the only way to get there. So stop whining, stand up, and learn a few relational skills. It’s good for you, it’s good for your body—you’ll live longer—it’s good for your marriage, and it’s good for your children.”
— Terry Real