My Two-Year Secret Project, COYOTE — The Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing with Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens (#821)

This is a very special episode for me, one I’ve been looking forward to publishing for months.

COYOTE is a fast, casual card game I created with the amazing Elan Lee and Exploding Kittens team. It has been my obsession for two years.

Here is a demo:

I worked really hard on every aspect of this one (concept, mechanics, art, you name it)!

You can finally buy it everywhere, including Amazon, Target, Walmart, and 8,000+ retail locations worldwide. It’s been a hit with 100+ test families, my friends, and at conferences around the world. It now produces guaranteed laughs with kids, adults, tipsy people, serious people… who all enjoy unleashing their inner trickster.

If you’ve benefited from my podcast, newsletter, books, or anything at all, please grab a copy or two! It only costs $10-12 and can provide hours upon hours of fun. It takes minutes to learn and 10 minutes to play. Under the hood, it’s also designed to be a good workout for your brain.

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Elan Lee, the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens.

We discuss the behind-the-scenes story of making COYOTE, including early misses, finding the right idea, developing it, navigating mass retail, and much, much more.

If you’ve ever wanted to learn how to get a product on the shelves of something like Walmart and Target, or simply create a game, this podcast covers it all.

P.S. One last thing: stick around to the end for a very fun surprise that involves a mystery Hollywood party.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, YouTube Music, Amazon Music, Audible, or on your favorite podcast platform. The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

This episode is brought to you by:

• Gamma AI design partner for effortless presentations, websites, social media posts, and more
  
• Shopify global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business
  
• Wealthfront high-yield cash account

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Want to hear the last time Elan Lee was on this show? Listen to our conversation here, in which we discussed the secrets behind Exploding Kittens’ record-breaking Kickstarter success, core gameplay loops, the power of positive constraints, craftsmanship in game design, building superfan communities, and much more.

This episode is brought to you by Gamma! With Gamma, you can create incredible, professional slide decks better, cheaper, and faster than you ever thought possible. With more than 50 million users, it’s already the most popular AI presentation platform in the world. Explore Gamma today at gamma.app. Listeners get 30% off any plan by using promo code TIM at checkout.

This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront! Wealthfront is a financial services platform that offers services to help you save and invest your money. Right now, you can earn a 3.25% base APY—that’s the Annual Percentage Yield—with the Wealthfront Cash Account from its network of program banks. That’s nearly eight times more interest than an average savings account at a bank, according to FDIC.gov as of 12/15/2025 (Wealthfront’s 3.25% APY vs. 0.40% average savings rate). Right now, for a limited time, Wealthfront is offering new clients an additional 0.65% boost over the base rate for three months, meaning you can get 3.90% APY, limited to $150,000 in deposits. Terms & Conditions apply. Visit Wealthfront.com/Tim to get started. 

The Cash Account, which is not a deposit account, is offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, member FINRA/SIPC. Wealthfront Brokerage is not a bank. The 3.25% Base APY on cash deposits is as of December 19, 2025, is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum. If you are eligible for the overall boosted rate of 3.9% offered in connection with this promo, your boosted rate is also subject to change if the base rate decreases during the three-month promotional period. Tim Ferriss, who is not a client, receives cash compensation from Wealthfront Brokerage LLC for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of Wealthfront Brokerage LLC. This ad may not reflect the experience of other Cash Account clients, and similar outcomes are not guaranteed. See full disclosures here. 

This episode is brought to you by Shopify! Shopify is one of my favorite platforms and one of my favorite companies. Shopify is designed for anyone to sell anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. In no time flat, you can have a great-looking online store that brings your ideas to life, and you can have the tools to manage your day-to-day and drive sales. Go to shopify.com/Tim to sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period. It’s a great deal for a great service, so I encourage you to check it out. Take your business to the next level today by visiting shopify.com/Tim.

What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

• Connect with Elan Lee:

Twitter | LinkedIn

• Connect with Exploding Kittens:

Website | Twitter | Instagram | TikTok | YouTube

The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

Elan Lee’s Past Appearance

• Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans | The Tim Ferriss Show #653

Games

• Coyote: The card game created by Elan and me!
• Dungeons & Dragons: The pioneering tabletop role-playing game that launched the entire RPG genre, featuring collaborative storytelling, character development, and dice-based mechanics that have influenced countless games since 1974.
• Rock Paper Scissors (RPS) / Rochambeau: The classic hand game involving simultaneous choices and circular dominance (rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock), serving as core mechanical inspiration for Coyote’s strategic decision-making framework.
• Sorry!: Classic family board game where players race their pawns around the board while drawing cards that can either help them advance or force opponents backward, teaching lessons about both strategy and accepting setbacks gracefully.
• Monopoly: The iconic property-trading board game that has dominated family game nights since 1935, teaching economic principles through real estate acquisition, rent collection, and strategic resource management, while often ending in dramatic family arguments.
• Poetry for Neanderthals: A hilarious Exploding Kittens party game where players must describe complex concepts using only single-syllable words or get “bonked” with an inflatable club, demonstrating how simple mechanics can create engaging casual gameplay that inspired the author’s approach to accessible game design.
• Magic: The Gathering: The groundbreaking collectible card game that created the entire TCG industry, featuring deep strategic gameplay, customizable decks, and a complex economy that has sustained competitive play and collecting for over 30 years.
• Hanabi: An innovative cooperative card game (Japanese for “fireworks”) where players work together to create perfect firework displays while being unable to see their own cards, requiring communication, memory, and trust to succeed as a team.
• UNO: The beloved family card game where players race to empty their hands by matching colors or numbers, featuring special action cards that can reverse play direction, skip opponents, or force card draws, making it accessible yet surprisingly strategic.
• Mario Kart: Nintendo’s iconic racing video game series specifically cited for its brilliant catch-up mechanics (like blue shells targeting the leader) that keep all players competitive throughout the race, serving as an example of how “attack cards” can balance gameplay.
• Exploding Kittens Original Edition: The flagship game of Elan’s company that became the most-backed Kickstarter project in history, featuring simple yet hilarious gameplay where players draw cards until someone draws an exploding kitten and loses, unless they have a defuse card.
• Hurry Up Chicken Butt: The best-selling Exploding Kittens game designed collaboratively with Elan’s daughter, featuring fast-paced card-slapping action where players race to match cards while dealing with silly interruptions and challenges.
• Throw Throw Burrito: A revolutionary Exploding Kittens game that combines card gameplay with physical dodgeball elements, where players collect matching sets while literally throwing soft foam burritos at each other, creating a unique hybrid of tabletop and active play.
• CATAN Board Game: The award-winning strategy game that popularized modern European-style board gaming, featuring resource management, trading, and modular board setup that creates different experiences each game, specifically cited as an example of successful iterative design and development.
• Warhammer: The complex tabletop miniature wargame system requiring detailed painted armies, intricate rules, and substantial time investment, mentioned as an example of a fundamentally different game type from casual, accessible party games.
• Game Types Mentioned: Card Games, Role-Playing Games (RPGs), Casual Games, Party Games, Trading Card Games (TCGs), Collectible Card Games (CCGs), Tabletop Games, Board Games, Cooperative Games.

Crowdfunding Options

• Kickstarter: An American public benefit corporation that maintains a global crowdfunding platform for creative projects.
• Craigstarter: Open-source crowdfunding tool and methodology by Craig Mod for transparent project funding.
• KickstarTrends: Receive exclusive discounts on the latest projects before anyone else.
• Backerlead: Stay ahead of the curve in technology and design.
• Kickstargo: Showcasing the best crowdfunding products.

Companies, Brands, and Organizations

• Exploding Kittens: A game company founded by Elan Lee that creates card games and mobile apps.
• The Legend of CØCKPUNCH: My early NFT project.
• Walmart: An American multinational retail corporation that operates a chain of hypermarkets, discount department stores, and grocery stores.
• Sam’s Club: A membership-only warehouse club owned by Walmart that offers bulk merchandise at discounted prices.
• Barnes & Noble: An American bookseller with the largest number of retail outlets in the United States.
• Target: An American big box department store chain headquartered in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
• Amazon: An American multinational technology company focusing on e-commerce, cloud computing, and digital streaming.
• Xbox: A video gaming brand created and owned by Microsoft that consists of gaming consoles and services.
• TSR: A defunct American game publishing company that was the original publisher of Dungeons & Dragons.
• Wizards of the Coast: An American publisher of games, primarily role-playing games and trading card games including Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons.
• Hasbro: An American multinational toy, board game, and media company known for brands like Monopoly and Transformers.
• Mattel: An American multinational toy manufacturing and entertainment company known for brands like Barbie and Hot Wheels.
• PickFu: A market research platform that provides instant consumer feedback through polls and surveys.
• Intellivy: A market research and consumer insights platform for product testing and validation.
• Stickybeak: A market research platform that provides consumer insights and product testing services.
• Vimeo: An American video hosting, sharing, and services platform used for high-quality video content.
• Google: An American multinational technology company specializing in internet-related services and products including search and advertising.
• LinkedIn: A business and employment-focused social networking platform owned by Microsoft.
• Shopify: A Canadian multinational e-commerce company that provides a platform for online stores and retail point-of-sale systems.
• Atari: An American video game developer and home computer company that was a pioneer in the arcade and video console industries.

People

• Gary Gygax: Co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons and pioneer of tabletop role-playing games.
• Jean-Claude Van Damme: Belgian martial artist and actor known for his action films and exceptional flexibility.
• Justin Gary: Author of Think Like a Game Designer: The Step-By-Step Guide to Unlocking Your Creative Potential and host of the Think Like A Game Designer podcast.
• Reid Hoffman: Co-founder of LinkedIn and venture capitalist, mentioned regarding delegation and his “10% footfall rate” philosophy.
• Seth Godin: Bestselling author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert who reframed questions about failure and innovation.
• Ken Gruhl: Expert game designer and mechanic specialist involved in Coyote’s development in Toronto.
• Raph Koster: Game designer and author of A Theory of Fun for Game Design, expert on game mechanics and virtual worlds.
• Karen Pryor: Author of Don’t Shoot the Dog! and pioneer of clicker training and positive reinforcement methods.
• Stephen Key: Inventor, author of One Simple Idea, and expert in product licensing with over 20 patents to his name.
• Nolan Bushnell: Founder of Atari and Chuck E. Cheese, creator of Bushnell’s Law: “Easy to learn, difficult to master.”
• Klaus Teuber: German board game designer best known for creating Settlers of Catan.
• Penn Jillette: Magician from Penn & Teller duo who partnered with Exploding Kittens on a game.
• Jeff Probst: Emmy-winning host of Survivor who partnered with Exploding Kittens on a game.
• Carly McGinnis: President of Exploding Kittens.
• Matthew Inman: Cartoonist and creator of The Oatmeal webcomic, artist for Exploding Kittens who helped launch the game through his massive online audience.
• Doug McMillon: President and CEO of Walmart, leading the world’s largest retailer.
• Sam Walton: Founder of Walmart and Sam’s Club, revolutionary retail entrepreneur.
• Alex Cutler and AJ Brandon: Hosts of the Fun Problems game design podcast, experts in tabletop game mechanics.
• Craig Mod: Writer, photographer, and creator of Craigstarter, known for his walks across Japan and innovative book publishing approaches.
• Brandon Sanderson: Fantasy author known for his record-breaking $41+ million Kickstarter campaign and prolific writing in the Cosmere universe.
• Gary Keller: Real estate mogul and co-founder of Keller Williams, known for the principle “Agreements are Disagreements.”

Books

• Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1st Edition) by Gary Gygax
• Dungeon Masters Guide (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1st Edition) by Gary Gygax
• One Simple Idea: Turn Your Dreams into a Licensing Goldmine While Letting Others Do the Work by Stephen Key
• A Theory of Fun for Game Design by Raph Koster
• Don’t Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training by Karen Pryor
• The 4-Hour Chef: The Simple Path to Cooking Like a Pro, Learning Anything, and Living the Good Life by Timothy Ferriss

Concepts and Ideas

• Product Line Review: A retail buying meeting process where manufacturers present to retailers to validate merchandising plans, educate on market opportunities, and secure shelf space for their products.
• Bushnell’s Law: A video game design principle attributed to Atari founder Nolan Bushnell stating that “all the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master” and should reward both first-time and experienced players.
• Prisoner’s Dilemma: A game theory thought experiment involving two rational agents who can either cooperate for mutual benefit or betray their partner for individual gain, illustrating the tension between self-interest and collective benefit.
• Zero Sum Game: A situation in game theory and economics where one participant’s gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of other participants, with the total value remaining constant.
• Past Year Review: A personal reflection process that involves systematically evaluating the previous year’s experiences, accomplishments, and lessons learned to gain insights for future goal-setting and personal development.
• Non-Fungible Token (NFT): Blockchain-tied assets behind The Legend of CØCKPUNCH.
• Wisconsin Card Sorting Test (WCST): Neuropsychological test compared to Coyote‘s potential cognitive effects.

Places

• Lake Geneva, Wisconsin: A picturesque lakeside city in southeastern Wisconsin that served as the original location of Gen Con gaming convention.
• Indianapolis, Indiana: The capital and most populous city of Indiana, currently hosting the annual Gen Con gaming convention since 2003.
• Austin, Texas: The capital city of Texas known for its vibrant gaming scene and as a location for podcast recordings in the gaming industry.
• Bentonville, Arkansas: A city in northwest Arkansas that serves as the global headquarters of Walmart Inc.
• Toronto, Canada: Canada’s largest city and provincial capital of Ontario, notable as a location for key development sprints for the Coyote game project.
• Germany: A European country known for its strong board gaming culture and conventions where games like Coyote have been well-received.

Movies, Podcasts, and Media

• How to Play Coyote: Coyote how-to-play video.
• Think Like A Game Designer: Podcast by Justin Gary focused on game design principles and business.
• Fun Problems: Game design podcast covering industry insights.
• Elan Lee’s YouTube Channel: Resource for game design instruction and industry insights from the Exploding Kittens co-creator.
• Kickstarter: Crowdfunding platform for creative projects including board games and product launches.
• PickFu: Market testing and consumer polling platform for product validation and feedback.
• Google Ads: Online advertising platform used for testing book titles and market validation.
• Vimeo: Video hosting platform used for playtest video review and content sharing.
• D&D Beyond: Digital platform for Dungeons & Dragons modules, Player’s Handbook, and DM Guide resources.
• Prototyping Supplies: Blank cards, Sharpies, and game creation kits for rapid game prototyping and testing.
• QR Code Generator: Technology used on game packaging for linking to video pitches and digital instructions.
• Zero Effect: A 1998 mystery-comedy film starring Bill Pullman as eccentric private detective Daryl Zero, whose investigative methodology emphasizes pure observation and objectivity to uncover unexpected connections and solutions.
• “We Will Rock You” by Queen: Brian May’s anthemic contribution to arena-based sporting events the world over.
• Downton Abbey: A British historical drama television series that follows the lives of the Crawley family and their servants in an Edwardian country house in the early 20th century.
• Poetry for Neanderthals player tries to convey “garage”: Popular video showing the game in action.

Events

• Gen Con: The largest tabletop game convention in North America featuring role-playing games, board games, card games, and miniatures with nearly 70,000 attendees annually in Indianapolis.
• South by Southwest (SXSW): An annual conglomeration of interactive media, music, and film festivals and conferences held each March in Austin, Texas since 1987, celebrating the convergence of technology, film, and music industries.

SHOW NOTES

• [00:00:00] Start.
• [00:05:21] Coyote: a game 47 years in the making.
• [00:08:41] Who is Elan Lee?
• [00:09:37] How our motivations behind game creation intersect.
• [00:12:41] The nutshell view of pitching a game to a retailer.
• [00:14:40] Salesmanship is a learnable skill, but Elan’s a natural.
• [00:15:53] Why I’ve always wanted to make my own game and how development began in earnest.
• [00:26:00] First contact with Elan and our fast-forged, fun-focused friendship.
• [00:32:28] The Hanabi and Rock, Paper, Scissors-inspired Toronto trip breakthrough.
• [00:39:40] Early prototyping and testing.
• [00:45:34] The Zero Effect.
• [00:47:37] Recommended game design rationales, resources, and reading.
• [00:53:00] The beginner’s mind approach to writing effective game instructions.
• [00:56:26] A simple fact: less complication = more fun.
• [00:57:49] Cooperative vs. competitive play.
• [00:58:24] Leveling the playing field with attack cards and sabotage mechanics.
• [01:01:34] Tricking people into cognitively bettering themselves by gaming.
• [01:08:04] Finding the sweet spot.
• [01:10:44] It takes a lot of work to make a game effortlessly fun.
• [01:13:40] How many games does Exploding Kittens publish per year?
• [01:14:36] Exploding Kittens’ number-one seller was designed by Elan’s four-year-old daughter.
• [01:18:30] Prototypes and pitching.
• [01:22:26] Improving on the industry’s fundamentally flawed testing procedure.
• [01:24:58] Analyzing passing/failure with play testers’ video and feedback.
• [01:28:41] Risks of internal testing.
• [01:31:47] Coyote’s first positive signs from the wild.
• [01:34:22] Online vs. physical store sales and tweaking variables to gauge market interest.
• [01:41:22] What a successful line review looks like.
• [01:43:51] Line review hoops through which lesser-proven companies have to hop.
• [01:48:04] Elan’s field-tested line review meeting strategies.
• [01:54:15] The importance of finding proper agent representation.
• [01:59:35] In modern marketing, social media (especially short-form video) is king.
• [02:04:48] The best and worst ways for an aspiring designer to sell a game.
• [02:13:05] Crowdfunding pros and cons, and Kickstarter alternatives.
• [02:19:57] Dealing with deal terms.
• [02:23:56] The Exploding Kittens attitude toward rare partnerships.
• [02:25:45] The types of games that capture Elan’s attention.
• [02:27:40] Common game design mistakes.
• [02:29:49] How we tried to avoid these mistakes when packaging Coyote.
• [02:33:55] Self-publishing vs. conventional publishing.
• [02:38:40] Business considerations and risks.
• [02:44:59] Parting thoughts and a tantalizing offer.

ELAN LEE QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW

“We don’t make games that are entertaining. We make games that make the players entertaining.”

— Elan Lee

“Your reaction should not be, ‘I’m going to buy that game.’ That’s not our goal. Your reaction is, ‘I’m going to pick up this game, and I’m going to turn it over, and I’m going to read the back of the box.’”

— Elan Lee

“It’s like saying, ‘Is there still space in the book industry? In the movie industry?’ All a game is is an idea delivered in a new way. When are we going to run out of ideas? When are we going to run out of delivery mechanisms? The answer to both of those, individually, is never.”

— Elan Lee

“70 percent of our sales are in-person retail. Only 30 percent are online sales. Totally backwards than what you’d expect for almost any industry.”

— Elan Lee

“We probably work on a hundred games a year, and less than 20 make the cut.”

— Elan Lee

“The way that you build the most effective videos for [games] is you need to inspire, I think, two emotions. One, ‘I understand what those people are experiencing right now,’ And two, ‘I would like to experience that.’ And it took me forever to get to those two sentences. At first it was, ‘Let’s show gameplay, let’s show setup, let’s show a memorable moment. Let’s show people screaming and yelling because they’re having so much fun.’ None of that matters. None of that works. ‘That looks like fun. I could have that much fun.’ That’s it. That’s what you’re trying to show.”

— Elan Lee