Brandon Sanderson on Building a Fiction Empire, Creating $40M+ Kickstarter Campaigns, Unbreakable Habits, The Art of World-Building, and The Science of Magic Systems (#794)

“Always err on the side of what’s awesome.”
— Brandon Sanderson

Brandon Sanderson (@BrandSanderson) is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of The Stormlight Archive series and the Mistborn saga; the middle-grade series Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians; and the young-adult novels The Rithmatist, the Reckoners trilogy, and the Skyward series. He has sold more than 40 million books in 35 languages, and he is a four-time nominee for the Hugo Awards, winning in 2013 for his novella The Emperor’s Soul. That same year, he was chosen to complete Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time series, culminating in A Memory of Light.

Brandon cohosts (with fellow author Dan Wells) the popular Intentionally Blank podcast and teaches creative writing at Brigham Young University.

Please enjoy!

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The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

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Want to hear an episode with another publishing-savvy worldbuilder? Listen to my interview with Silo author Hugh Howey in which we discussed breaking formula with a literary sleight of hand, the benefits of buying back rights and self-publishing, why authors should strive for a reader-first vs. publisher-first mindset, how authors can find deal leverage early on, fiction that inspires better writing, keys to fruitful collaboration, AI’s present-and-future impact on publishing, and much more.

What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

• Connect with Brandon Sanderson:

Website | YouTube

Books

• The Stormlight Archive Series: The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, Oathbringer, Rhythm of War, and Wind and Truth by Brandon Sanderson
• The Mistborn Saga: Mistborn, The Well of Ascension, The Hero of Ages, The Alloy of Law, Shadows of Self, The Bands of Mourning, and The Lost Metal by Brandon Sanderson
• Alcatraz Versus the Evil Librarians: Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians, The Scrivener’s Bones, The Knights of Crystallia, The Shattered Lens, The Dark Talent, and Bastille vs. the Evil Librarians by Brandon Sanderson
• The Rithmatist by Brandon Sanderson
• The Reckoners Trilogy: Steelheart, Firefight, and Calamity by Brandon Sanderson
• The Skyward Series: Skyward, Starsight, Cytonic, and Defiant by Brandon Sanderson
• Elantris by Brandon Sanderson
• The Emperor’s Soul by Brandon Sanderson
• Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson
• Tress of the Emerald Sea by Brandon Sanderson
• The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan
• Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin
• Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien
• On Writing by Stephen King
• How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy by Orson Scott Card
• Dragonsbane by Barbara Hambly
• The Harry Potter Series by J.K. Rowling
• Save the Cat! The Last Book on Screenwriting You’ll Ever Need by Blake Snyder
• Save the Cat! Goes to the Movies by Blake Snyder
• Writing to Sell by Scott Meredith
• The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss
• Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
• The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis
• Beowulf: A Translation and Commentary by J.R.R. Tolkien
• The Conan the Barbarian Stories by Robert E. Howard
• The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie
• The Epic of Gilgamesh
• Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay
• Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay
• The Princess Bride by William Goldman
• Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare
• The Book of Swords Series by Fred Saberhagen
• Ender’s Game by Orson Scott Card
• The 4-Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss
• The Hunger Games Series by Suzanne Collins
• The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch
• The Principles of Scientific Management by Frederick Winslow Taylor
• His Dark Materials Series by Philip Pullman

Movies

• Avatar
• Blade Runner
• Sneakers
• The Sting
• Ocean’s Eleven
• The Italian Job (1969)
• The Italian Job (2003)
• The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers Collector’s Gift Set with Gollum
• Raiders of the Lost Ark
• The Princess Bride
• Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
• Star Wars

Shows

• Writing Excuses (Podcast): A podcast about the craft of writing, featuring Brandon Sanderson and other authors.
• Whose Line Is It Anyway?: An improv comedy show that Brandon Sanderson uses as inspiration for his writing exercises.
• Game of Thrones: A fantasy TV series based on the books by George R.R. Martin, known for its complex characters and unpredictable plot.
• Arcane: A fantasy TV series that features a magepunk aesthetic, where magic is combined with technology.
• The Colbert Report: A satirical news show that once featured Brandon Sanderson’s picture in a segment about zeppelins.
• The History Channel: A TV channel that Brandon Sanderson’s former editor, Moshe, used to watch as a form of self-medication.

Institutions

• Brigham Young University: The university Brandon Sanderson attended and currently teaches a creative writing class.
• Creative Commons: The nonprofit behind the licenses and tools the world uses to share.
• The Hugo Awards: The Academy Awards of science fiction and fantasy, where Brandon Sanderson once received a pin from Cory Doctorow.

Concepts

• Conlang: A constructed language, such as Klingon or Elvish, that is created specifically for a fictional world.
• J.R.R. Tolkien’s Languages: An examination of Tolkien’s work with conlangs in his universe.
• Paul Frommer On Creating the Na’vi Language for Avatar: An interview with Avatar’s conlang creator.
• Worldbuilder’s Disease: The tendency for fantasy writers to get bogged down in worldbuilding at the expense of the story.
• 10 of the Best Cures for Writer’s Block: Trying to get unstuck? Different strategies work for different writers. Some of these may help.
• The Hero’s Journey: A common narrative structure in fiction, where a hero goes on a quest, faces challenges, and ultimately triumphs over evil.
• Three-Act Play: A common narrative structure in plays and films, where the story is divided into three acts: setup, confrontation, and resolution.
• Worldbuilding 101 as Taught by Robert Jordan: How Robert Jordan created a fully realized world for his The Wheel of Time series.
• “Yes, But” or “No, And”: First, decide whether or not your protagonist is going to achieve the scene goal. Yes or No. The answer will determine where to go next.
• Plot Points: What They Are, and How to Use Them Well: Once you have mastered these, everything else should fall neatly into place.
• The Sunk-Cost Fallacy: Following through with something that we’ve already invested heavily in (be it time, money, effort, or emotional energy), even when giving up is clearly a better idea.
• The Ultimate Guide to Fantasy Sub Genres: They are legion.
• Magepunk: A subgenre of fantasy where magic is combined with technology.
• Hextech: A magic-based technology that uses runes and gemstones to power devices in the Arcane universe.
• What Is Discovery Writing, Anyway?: Brandon says he “discovery wrote” his Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians series. What does that mean?
• The Cosmere: The shared universe that connects many of Brandon’s fantasy novels.
• The MCU: The Marvel Cinematic Universe
• The Death Spiral: When a book’s sales decline with each subsequent printing, leading to fewer copies being ordered and less visibility in bookstores.
• Allomancy: One of the three magic systems in the Mistborn trilogy. “Allomancers” have the ability to use metals to fuel a variety of physical and mental enhancements.
• Isaac Newton’s Secret Alchemy: John Maynard Keynes declared that Newton “was not the first of the age of reason. He was the last of the magicians.”
• Scientific Method: A way of demarcating scientific activity from non-science.
• Taylor and the Gilbreths: How Frederick Winslow Taylor and Frank and Lillian Gilbreth attempted to maximize human productivity while minimizing the wear and tear of physical toil around the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries — with science!
• Was Arthur C. Clarke Right? An Exploration of the Magical Nature of Technology: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
• The Use of Magic in Tolkien’s Universe — Building a World: Magic serves to further the plot in Tolkien’s works, but it is used in a conservative way in order to focus on the courage and willpower of the characters to make the world safe from the Shadow.
• Sanderson’s Laws of Magic: Three rules that Brandon follows when creating magic systems for his fantasy novels.
• 10 Things Harry Potter Taught Us About a Mother’s Love: The courage and selflessness of mothers ultimately save the entire wizarding world from Voldemort’s evil reign.
• Deus Ex Machina: A plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly or abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence.
• What’s the Difference Between Young Adult and Adult Books?: If you’re writing a book and you’re not sure if it should be categorized as Middle Grade, Young Adult, New Adult, or Adult, then this is the post for you!
• Feruchemy: The second magic system in the Mistborn series. While an Allomancer burns metal to gain power, a Feruchemist must provide the power for the magic from their own body.
• Hemalurgy: The third magic system in the Mistborn Series. To use Hemalurgy, a metal spike must be driven through someone’s heart. Then the spike is taken and stabbed into the body of another person. Yikes!
• Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics: If two thermodynamic systems are both in thermal equilibrium with a third system, then the two systems are in thermal equilibrium with each other.
• Asimov’s Zeroth Law of Robotics: A robot may not harm humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.
• Sanderson’s Zeroth Law of Magic: Always err on the side of what’s awesome!

Companies and Organizations

• Dragonsteel: Brandon’s company, which handles the production and distribution of his books and merchandise.
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints: The religious organization to which Brandon belongs, which influenced his decision to go on a mission to Korea.
• Celsius: A science fiction and fantasy convention in Spain that Brandon has attended.
• Macmillan: The parent company of Tor, which was involved in a dispute with Amazon over ebook pricing.
• Tor: Brandon’s primary publisher for his fantasy novels.
• Kickstarter: A crowdfunding platform that Brandon has used to successfully fund the publication of his books.
• USA Today: A national newspaper that once featured a story about zeppelins, which led to Brandon’s picture appearing on The Colbert Report.
• Book Talk: A book review website that has helped drive sales of Brandon ‘s book, Tress of the Emerald Sea.
• Reactor: Tor’s publicity website where Brandon releases chapters of his work in progress.
• Hacker News: Y Combinator’s social news website focusing on computer science and entrepreneurship.
• ACX: An all-in-one marketplace for independent audiobook creators.
• Random House Audio: The audiobook publisher that Brandon works with.
• Discord: A social media platform that Brandon uses to communicate with his beta readers.
• Steam: A digital distribution platform for video games, which Brandon uses to play games in his free time.

Additional Helpful Items

• Brandon Sanderson’s BYU Lectures on Writing Fantasy: This YouTube playlist contains Brandon’s lectures on writing fantasy, which cover topics such as worldbuilding, magic systems, and character development.
• Notes on Brandon’s Sci-Fi and Fantasy Creative Writing Course: Extensive notes on the aforementioned lectures, courtesy of Grant Skaggs.
• Jabberwocky by Lewis Carroll: The poem Mary Robinette Kowal uses for soundcheck.
• Fifty Nifty United States: The song Brandon uses for soundcheck.
• Seoul, South Korea: Where Brandon found inspiration for worldbuilding.
• Hangul: The Korean writing system, its history, and structure.
• Learn to Read Korean in 15 Minutes by Ryan Estrada: This webcomic provides a basic introduction to the Korean writing system.
• Esperanto: A constructed language that is intended to be easy to learn and use as a universal second language.
• George R.R. Martin on the Two Types of Writers: Gardeners vs. architects.
• Writing Excuses: The website companion to Brandon’s Writing Excuses podcast.
• Lincoln, Nebraska, USA: Where Brandon grew up.
• Reading Dragonsbane Was My Ultimate Eureka Moment: A Guardian article about how young Brandon caught the reading/writing bug.
• Michael Whelan’s Cover Illustration for Dragonsbane: An image that helped capture the imagination of “reluctant reader” Brandon.
• Will You Sign My Book?: How to get Brandon to sign your book (even if you’re not Joe Abercrombie).
• Is 2010 the New 1984? Amazon Can Cut Off Your Access to Books Any Time It Wants: When Amazon cut off Mcmillan and flexed its power in the publishing world.
• What Is a Remainder?: Book copies that experience sluggish sales and can be procured from the publisher at a discounted rate.
• How Brandon Sanderson’s Kickstarter Project Broke the Bookish Internet: Here’s why the author’s record-smashing Kickstarter campaign performed so phenomenally well.
• George R.R. Martin Admits He May Never Finish Game of Thrones Book Series: Fans have already been waiting for over a decade, and he’s in his late 70s.
• It’s Time to Come Clean: Brandon’s COVID-era confession/new writing revelation video.
• Impressionism: Not everybody’s cup of tea, but there’s no denying it’s art.
• An Agent Explains the Ins and Outs of Book Deals: How do advances work? When do you get royalties? How long until you can quit your job? A pro demystifies the money part of writing.
• Author’s Perspective: Pros and Cons of Investing in an Audiobook: It’s a lot of work, but is it worth it?
• Can No-Advance Ebook Contracts Be a Good Deal?: If you’re going to play the game, it pays to know the rules.
• EUOLogy: Goodbye Mr. Jordan: Brandon’s kind words on the passing of The Wheel of Time author Robert Jordan.
• Mistborn: The Final Empire Covers: Not all illustrations are created equal. Which one would make you give Mistborn a second look at the bookstore?
• Extra-Terrestrial Relays: Can Rocket Stations Give World-Wide Radio Coverage? by Arthur C. Clarke
• Brandon Sanderson’s First Law of Magic: An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.
• Brandon Sanderson’s Second Law of Magic: Limitations > Powers.
• Brandon Sanderson’s Third Law of Magic: The author should expand what already exists before adding something new.
• Explore John Ronald Reuel Tolkien’s Oxford: A walk around the interesting Tolkien sites at Oxford with local guide Rob Walters.
• Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall and Procedural Generation — Finding Beauty in the Mundane: What if The Elder Scrolls VI went back to this ancient technology? Hmm…
• Quickbase is the software that Brandon and team use for tracking feedback.

SHOW NOTES

• [00:00:00] Who is Brandon Sanderson?
• [00:07:10] How “50 Nifty United States” became Brandon’s default soundcheck.
• [00:08:14] Brandon’s unusual memory.
• [00:09:12] Optimizing productivity.
• [00:11:20] Brandon’s Seoul connection and how it informed his creative process.
• [00:13:03] Why Korean is an ideal starter Asian language for Westerners.
• [00:16:32] Creating worlds’ worth of conlangs (constructed languages) without succumbing to worldbuilder’s disease.
• [00:20:34] The game-changing influence of David Farland.
• [00:25:27] Brandon’s approach to teaching creative writing and publishing insights.
• [00:25:27] Brandon’s approach to teaching creative writing and publishing insights.
• [00:28:23] Writing styles: gardeners vs. architects.
• [00:30:34] Helping students navigate past writing roadblocks.
• [00:33:51] Brandon’s average daily word count.
• [00:37:57] What made Brandon want to become a writer?
• [00:45:32] Brandon’s journey from a C Student to an A Student.
• [00:46:45] We trade stories about the influence of great teachers.
• [00:48:48] Teaching students how to understand narrative and plot.
• [00:54:38] Recommended reading for narrative building.
• [00:56:05] Brandon is part gardener, part architect who takes inspiration from improv.
• [00:56:47] The art of character development — what happens when it goes right (and wrong).
• [01:09:41] Finding a balance between personal and professional life.
• [01:14:14] Why did Brandon and his wife build the Dragonsteel company?
• [01:18:20] What characterizes an epic fantasy?
• [01:19:38] Aside: Brandon’s Joe Abercrombie story.
• [01:22:55] Brandon’s financial realities as a prolific but relatively unknown writer.
• [01:25:57] Hitting the bestseller list and adapting to an Amazon-dominated publishing world.
• [01:29:03] Brandon’s DIY approach to changing an inflexible industry on his own terms.
• [01:33:21] Sure, time is money. But how much is that worth?
• [01:36:43] Team building, remainder recycling, runaway crowdfunding success, and lessons learned.
• [01:47:48] The escape velocity of attention.
• [01:52:22] How COVID helped Brandon reclaim creative freedom and family time.
• [02:00:32] Brandon’s viral video “confession.”
• [02:02:53] The Colbert Report (sort of) cameo.
• [02:03:48] Outperforming Kickstarter expectations and shipping limited run subscription boxes.
• [02:09:01] Test readers and the feedback process.
• [02:15:36] Warbreaker and the Creative Commons experiment.
• [02:22:50] Navigating the sordid world of publishing deals and platforms.
• [02:33:26] How Brandon got tapped to complete the celebrated Wheel of Time series.
• [02:43:57] How Mistborn went from floundering to flourishing.
• [02:45:02] Building an audience that would follow Brandon anywhere in The Cosmere.
• [02:48:26] The dreaded publishing Death Spiral.
• [02:52:16] Why Brandon finds magic systems to be an integral part of his worldbuilding.
• [03:00:32] Sanderson’s Three Laws of Magic.
• [03:14:12] The Zeroth Law and final thoughts.

MORE BRANDON SANDERSON QUOTES FROM THE INTERVIEW

“Something changed in me that day. I went from a C student to an A student over summer. … Why that change? Because I discovered stories about wizards. I discovered there was something I wanted to do. There was now a reason to get good grades.”
— Brandon Sanderson

“Promise, progress, payoff. That is what makes people love stories and read through on a macro scale.”
— Brandon Sanderson

“One important mindset that is kind of a ground rule is remembering, as a writer, that the piece of art is not necessarily just the story you’re creating, that you are the piece of art. The time you spend writing is improving you as a writer and that is the most important thing. The book is almost a side product … to the fact that you are the art. And if you know that, it helps a lot.”
— Brandon Sanderson

“My superpower is to be an artist raised by an accountant, and I’ve always had a bit of that entrepreneurial sense.”
— Brandon Sanderson

“I heard that your first five books are generally terrible. I said, ‘Well, that’s good. I don’t have to be good yet.’ It took a lot of pressure off me. I said, ‘I’m going to write six, and the first five I’m not going to send out to any publishers.’”
— Brandon Sanderson

“If you even want to reach your own audience, you have to have an escape velocity of attention. You have to break through these barriers preventing even your fan base from seeing what’s happening.”
— Brandon Sanderson

“Can you dig a little deeper into who this character is, instead of adding a new one to make your story wider, but more shallow?”
— Brandon Sanderson

“What are you going to get when you come to one of my books? You’re going to get science-fiction worldbuilding and a fantasy story. You’re going to get people discovering how magic works that’s repeatable, and they’re going to be able to use it in order to solve problems and make their lives better.”
— Brandon Sanderson

“Always err on the side of what’s awesome.”
— Brandon Sanderson

PEOPLE MENTIONED

Isaac Asimov
Mary Robinette Kowal
Emily Sanderson
Sejong the Great
George Washington
J.R.R. Tolkien
Paul Frommer
George R.R. Martin
David Farland
Stephen King
Orson Scott Card
Steven Soderbergh
Gail M. Reeder
Barbara Hambly
Michael Whelan
Hayao Miyazaki
Michael Jordan
Barbara Sanderson
Karen Dress
Masatoshi Shimano
Robert Jordan
Scott Meredith
Frodo Baggins
Sauron
Kelsier
Rashek
Vin
The Artful Dodger
Patrick Rothfuss
Terry Pratchett
Michael Moorcock
Tom Doherty
Howard Tayler
Becky Wilson
Adam Horne
Kara Stewart
Guy Gavriel Kay
William Goldman
William Shakespeare
Stephen Colbert
Peter Ahlstrom
Karen Ahlstrom
Cory Doctorow
Hugh Howey
Harriet McDougal Rigney
Fred Saberhagen
Moshe Feder
Elise Matthesen
Jane Yolen
Hoid
Robin Hobb
Jim Butcher
Scott Lynch
Isaac Newton
Frederick Winslow Taylor
Arthur C. Clarke
Superman/Clark Kent
Gandalf
J.K. Rowling
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Luke Skywalker
Durin’s Bane
Peter Jackson
Boromir
Samwise Gamgee
Philip Pullman
Lyra Belacqua
Sazed
Lois Lane