It seems to me that the purpose of life is to find a mode of being that is so meaningful that the fact that life is suffering is no longer relevant.
— Jordan Peterson
Jordan B. Peterson (@jordanbpeterson) has taught mythology to lawyers, doctors, and business people, consulted for the UN secretary-general, helped his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia, served as an adviser to senior partners of major Canadian law firms, and lectured extensively in North America and Europe.
With his students and colleagues at Harvard and the University of Toronto, Dr. Peterson has published more than one hundred scientific papers, transforming the modern understanding of personality, as his book Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief revolutionized the psychology of religion.
His book 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos was published in 2018 and has sold more than 4 million copies internationally. His latest book is Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life.
Please enjoy!
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The transcript of this episode can be found here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.
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What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.
SCROLL BELOW FOR LINKS AND SHOW NOTES…
Do you want to hear an episode with one of Jordan’s more well-known debate partners? Listen to my most recent conversation with Sam Harris, in which we discussed psychedelics, how to cope during the pandemic, taming anxiety, and much more.
SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE
- Connect with Jordan Peterson:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube | Personality Assessment | Self-Authoring Suite
- Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life by Jordan B. Peterson
- 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos by Jordan B. Peterson
- Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief by Jordan B. Peterson
- Government of Alberta, Canada
- Canada’s NDP
- Great Books | Jordan Peterson
- One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Alexander Solzhenitsyn
- Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoyevsky
- Values and Morals | The Perspectives of Nietzsche
- “The Purpose of Life…” | Jordan Peterson, Goodreads
- Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
- 16 Jordan Peterson Memes That Made Me Clean My Room with Laughter | HighExistence
- Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas: A Savage Journey to the Heart of the American Dream by Hunter S. Thompson
- Island by Aldous Huxley
- Jordan Peterson: The Mystery of DMT and Psilocybin | Bite-Sized Philosophy
- Jordan B. Peterson: Roland Griffiths’ Research with Psilocybin | Datun Center
- The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide – Risks, Micro-Dosing, Ibogaine, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show #66
- The World’s Largest Psychedelic Research Center | The Tim Ferriss Show #385
- What Are the Big 5 Personality Traits? | Verywell Mind
- Carl Jung On Why You Should Be Wary of Psychedelics | Voicecraft
- Understanding the Relationship Between Amphetamines and Psychosis | Current Addiction Reports
- Everything You Should Know About Ego Death | DoubleBlind
- Ecstasy Tabs Destroying Forest Wilderness | The New Humanitarian
- Inner Paths to Outer Space: Journeys to Alien Worlds through Psychedelics and Other Spiritual Technologies by Rick Strassman
- Taking DMT Can Lead to Experiences Similar to Those Reported by People Who Claim to Have Been Abducted by Aliens, Study Shows | Newsweek
- Amanita Muscaria (Fly Agaric Mushroom) | First Nature
- Biblical Series XIII: Jacob’s Ladder Transcript | Jordan B. Peterson
- Mushroom Expert Exhumes the Stoned Ape Theory | Big Think
- The Animals That Love Doing Drugs | Animal Cognition
- Definition of Sequelae | Merriam-Webster
- Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories | Jordan B. Peterson
- Sam Harris & Jordan Peterson in Vancouver, Night One | Pangburn
- Sam Harris & Jordan Peterson in Vancouver, Night Two | Pangburn
- Biblical Series V: Cain and Abel: The Hostile Brothers Transcript | Jordan B. Peterson
- Biblical Series II: Genesis 1: Chaos & Order Transcript | Jordan B. Peterson
- Yinyang (Yin-Yang) | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
- Phallogocentric | Bloomsbury Literary Studies Blog
SHOW NOTES
- Who was Sandy Notley, and what role does she play in Jordan’s story? [05:23]
- Early influential books that have stood the test of time for Jordan, and what listeners can expect to gain by delving into the list of books he recommends at his website. [08:57]
- On the Nietzschean idea of morality as cowardice, and what we might do to cultivate courage while keeping our more dangerous inclinations in check. [11:37]
- Drawing a distinction between thinking and paying attention as a way to gain insight during a conversation that may turn adversarial, and why resentment, for all its ugliness, can be a valuable consultant. [16:18]
- On finding meaning to make life’s suffering irrelevant (or at least non-corrupting), and Jordan’s thoughts about how this perspective informs his conservative leanings. [24:10]
- What does Jordan feel is the right way to constructively criticize a social institution? [29:30]
- Jordan weighs in on what he finds fascinating about psychology and the physiology of drug and alcohol use, and what he considers to be the “Pandora’s Box” of seeking religious experiences through psychedelics. [34:43]
- If the contents of this Pandora’s Box facilitate greater openness, when might this not be a good thing? How does Jordan define openness in this context, and how does it relate to Carl Jung’s warning to “beware of unearned wisdom?” [39:48]
- In what ways does Jordan believe the world is, as he puts it, “deeply strange?” How did his son once inexplicably illustrate the chaos and order of this strangeness from a child’s perspective? [45:24]
- Stoned apes, high flies, and the risk of ontological shock faced by people who pursue psychoactive experiences too casually. [51:00]
- What might the average person in the Western world, religious or not, gain by studying the Bible? [53:57]
- Jordan believes that ancient stories — as found in the Bible — carry kernels of wisdom that have been stripped of superfluousness over time. When writing a book, how does he try to convey his own messages in a way that will remain intact over time to serve further generations? [59:54]
- How writing a book can be the meaning an author needs to keep going, and why finishing it can counterintuitively be a source of devastation rather than elation. [1:02:25]
- What would Jordan recommend to someone seeking meaning if they have reached a high level of competence in a certain area? [1:03:30]
- Why is Jordan’s new book called Beyond Order? [1:05:23]
- Beyond sales, what would make Jordan consider Beyond Order a success? [00:00]
- Parting thoughts. [1:16:48]
PEOPLE MENTIONED
- Grant Notley
- Ayn Rand
- Aldous Huxley
- George Orwell
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
- Rachel Notley
- Fyodor Dostoevsky
- Friedrich Nietzsche
- Abraham Lincoln
- Oscar Wilde
- Viktor Frankl
- Hunter S. Thompson
- Rick Strassman
- Roland Griffiths
- Matt Johnson
- Timothy Leary
- Carl Jung
- Terence McKenna
- Mircea Eliade
- Alfred North Whitehead
- Sam Harris
- Cain and Abel
- Pinocchio
- Jacques Derrida
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Just wondering if you got around to asking Dr. Peterson about his assertions that sexism doesn’t exist – he has called it “an appalling theory.” Or if you had a chance to ask him about his belief that racism does not exist and is essentially a fiction perpetrated by liberals – he has called it a “Marxist lie.” Your guest has also said that the notion of gender identity being subjective is “as bad as claiming that the world is flat.” Also, isn’t this the guy who professed a belief in a strict meat diet on Joe Rogan’s podcast…meaning nothing but meat, salt, and water? I think that eventually sent him to the hospital, yes?
Check out the episode to see if he asked those questions. FWIW I thought it was a thought provoking interview.
Hi Alex. 1) Dr. Peterson has never said sexism or racism do not exist. You’re conflating sexism/racism and “systemic sexism/racism” which are terms with deliberately vague definitions, and yes they are associated with a pseudo-marxism (disparate impact theory, conflict theory, critical race theory, etc). 2) His diet did not in anyway put him in the hospital. He was on a specific drug which he stopped using and there were extremely negative side-effects, none of which were associated with his diet. 3) To believe gender is purely subjective – or socially constructed – and therefore disconnected from biologically, is as a-scientific as flat-earth theories.
Well stated, Michelle. It’s seems indicative of ideological possession for the possessed to use ad hominem criticisms/attacks instead of engaging with the content of the ideas. Misrepresenting Dr. Peterson’s (and others’) positions is often the first play from the playbook – and if it’s in legacy print media, it’s assumed to be accurate, and then regurgitated as “fact”.
I think Jordan Peterson might disagree with your version of Jordan Peterson.
Grossly misrepresenting who is is and probably because you are hearing what you want to hear and not listening to the exact words he has said instead. He has never denied sexism or racism. He has argued against the notion that society is predacted against women through a heirarchal patriarchy and to view the battle of the sexes as the domination of one against the other across history is the “appaling theory” and means you are viewing the world through an ideological lens. Same for the notion that society is fundamentally run by institutional racism and white supremacy.
Finally – he has not recommended his all meat diet to anyone – it was in response to a specific set of auto-immune disorders he and his daughter have suffered from their whole life and after exhausting many other options this finally seemed to help (btw I’m vegeterian so have no bone in the fight to support hsi all meat-diet). The hospital trip was due to severe anxiety to what he believed was his wife’s terminal diagnosis and being prescribed drugs that left him with severe addiction and side effects.
It is sad how much of what he says is deliberately distorted simply because those who oppose critical thinking, science and reason would rather discredit him then have to seriously contend with the points he makes. I’d suggest taking a break from reading the NYT hit pieces and go listen to his long form interviews on youtube in stead – joe rogan might not be a bad place to start.
Alex, not cool to condemn people based on stuff you make up about them.
Alex, you sound so WOKE you’ve not ever gone to bed. Which leads me to wonder whether in your WOKENESS you are getting enough sleep as clearly Dr Peterson hasn’t said the things you claim he has in those contexts.
Peterson is so overrated. Most of his advice is common sense. Some of his views are a bit nuts though.
Agree. How “smart” can Peterson be if he says Trump is a genius and he can’t experience a smile? Maybe he takes himself too seriously.
Goes to show how much demand there is for common sense these days.
Was waiting for this one Tim. Thank you
Why no transcript? What do deaf people do?
Im sure they are working on it. May be if we just wait some days til they can release it … after all it’s free quality content that we are getting for free. But it’s just an idea, I could be wrong! I hope you have a good day.
They upload transcripts some days after the publication of the audio. Be patient, brother 🙂
Hi Michael — You can find the transcript here: https://tim.blog/2021/03/02/jordan-peterson-transcript/
Thank you so much!
Thank you Tim! I’ve so wanted this interview from you for so long. I can’t wait to listen!!
Can’t tell you how happy waking up to seeing this made me! Cheers from Buenos Aires Tim, hope to see you around here some time 🙂
Thank you for being willing to bring on controversial guests who can challenge listeners. I hadn’t heard about Peterson’s new book, which is the point of doing podcast tours I suppose. I’ll definitely have to check it out.
Keep pushing boundaries and opening minds, good sirs. 😀
Waited so long for this one! Thank you for having this conversation:)
Hi Tim, I’ve been following you for over 10 years and this latest interview with Jordan Peterson is amazing , one of your best ever podcasts in my opinion. You are a great interviewer. Thanks for all you do
Been pestering Tim on twitter for two years to have JP on the show. Feel like a kid on Xmas morning right now.
Haha, well done Miguel, we have you to thank!
Miguel we’re all together in accord!! Merry March-mas 😉
I really enjoyed the conversation, thank you.
Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are,…
1 Corinthians 1:26-27
Does anyone know where I can find the tree of life pictures Tim refers to around 45 min in?
Google “tree of life pictures https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tree+of+life+pictures&t=newext&atb=v171-1&ia=web
I think this is it:
I will gladly skip this one. A bit disappointed that he was chosen by Tim. It is one thing to have a controversial guest to truly push boundaries and have a great intellectual discourse (Sam Harris, Eric Weinstein, Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt). It is another to have a word-spinning, far-right extremist who legitimizes hate through pretentious psychological gobbledygook.
Your comment seems nonsensical. It serves no purpose to anyone but you. I’m sure that this interview was more than just a lark or fluff piece for Tim. After listening, I am strengthened and lifted in my hope for humanity.
Jordan Peterson has also had great conversations with everyone you mentioned.
Listen to his lectures or long form podcasts instead of misinforming yourself through hit pieces.
Also, the far right doesn’t like him either.
I agree with you, I was disappointed too.
Jordan Peterson interview? We need this one, Tim. I’m drooling in anticipation. You rock.
Tim, Rosemary Altea is your next go-to. [Moderator: link removed.] if you want answers to big world questions. I work for her and she is top notch. Putting you two togther would be most intersting.
Unsubscribing after 6 years. Jordan Peterson Material should definitely not be spread any further without warning. Would not have expected to find the darling of the alt-right who lulls his target group of lost young men with his anti-feminist visions into buying his books that sell his advice on the base of data from Sweden as universally applicable, who insults his trans students with the argument of free speech and who academics on the one hand consider laughable, on the other one a dangerous charlatan. Disappointed this nonsense gets a platform here.
Janina, you should have a book burning party and host a censoring campaign to “stop the spread” of JP lol
That’s fine
100%
Bye Tim. Embarrassed to own your books.
I no longer going to follow Tim’s podcast as well. I try to find the middle ground in most things but someone like JP I can’t find it. So much pedantic stuff to buffer just more of the same old garbage that insults history of women and people of color. I’m out!
Agreed. It’s a bit surprising so many of Tim’s followers are right-wing conservatives.
Jordan Peterson is one of the most intelligent and thoughtful influencers of our time. He gets mischaracterized much to often, while he has the best intentions of others at mind. What a great interview, I’m sure his new book will be great.
Jordan is such an important mind. His detractors should take some time to listen to what he says rather than listening to what people say he says.
finally! 2 of my favourite people in one conversation! How I missed Jordan Peterson.. and can’t wait to read his new book
An intense interview for sure. JP is a very deep character than is wrestling with many ideas. At times i could sense Tim a bit confused (or even amused) with the level of hostility (not directed at him albeit) from JP.
I enjoyed it immensely.
Longtime fan, subscriber, listener, and reader. I’m unsubscribing today from your emails and YouTube because I don’t support your choice to give Jordan Peterson access to your platform and audience. Incredibly disappointed, but I’m hopeful that I’ll be part of your audience again someday.
same.
I feel disappointed that you didn’t dig deeper and asked more follow up questions and instead moved on to another unrelated question when Jordan was getting into something maybe beyond what we are used to discussing. I kept pulling my hair during some moments when Jordan started talking about really interesting topics and you didn’t follow up on that.
Hopefully you’ll have him back and decide to dig deep even though you might not agree with him or understand some of the existential topics he talks about. I really enjoy the podcast otherwise.
Waiting for round 2, this was great! Jordan was challenging and that made it a very engaging podcast that ended too soon. Tim has consistently had varied opinions on this podcast. If you didn’t like it, just listen to the next one.
Tim, man, it has been fun. I’ve not always agreed with you, but I’ve been a true fan. I’ve spent thousands of dollars buying your books, giving them as gifts, supporting your causes, etc. But Jordan Peterson is where I get off the train. He hates too much, and judges too much, and really, looks down on too many people. I’ve read the books and listened to the lectures. I even listened to your podcast. I try to respect differing opinions, and I do my best, but appreciating what this dude has to say is a move towards relativism. He’s not a good man. He’s not helping create a better world. This really bums me out, man. Your podcasts and books have been guiding principles for me. This is disappointing. Thanks for everyting, man, but you lost me here.
Interesting how you followed Tim through the Charles Koch interview, but JP is where you draw the line.
This man (JP) is deeply and painfully in touch with reality, and by this I do NOT mean there is one reality, but that he is able to look at reality as it happens, observe it and act. To me it has to do with his willingness to take the shadow into the equation, which is oddly refreshing.
Tim, you held space for him to go to his core. I myself cried at the end of the conversation. You both came down to earth, while also being in deep reflection.
I appreciate really much the work you both do in the world.
For me watching this today has had a hinge of a religious/spiritual experience.
Would love to see you give a platform to more women BIPOC instead of just another interview with an overly confident white man. They already take up enough space in this world.
IMO, Tim demonstrated patience, poise and more insight (than his interviewee) throughout a disappointing interview. I have been wanting to know more about JP due to his new found celebrity status and I thought this blog would be a good start. I found JP pedantic and not particularly profound (though lots of ‘common sense’ that did appeal to me). His self deprecation and false humility were off putting from someone so strident in his opinion. He is clearly articulate but his use of scientific bafflegab to impress his audience, by repeating what seem like well worn, almost rote, but rambling, diatribes didn’t convince this listener. JP’s tendency to interrupt and seeming love of the sound of his own voice were another distraction. Maybe I have to read his books (as opposed to listen to him) to better understand the man and his opinions?
I just unsubscribed. I did not realize you were a fan of this Alt-Right icon. So disappointing.
An interesting discussion. So many demons in Peterson; honestly it makes me shudder a bit. It’s more apparent since his recovery (about which I’m very glad for him). Overall, I find JP an oddly compelling nut, and I’m not a fan, but I think there’s value in studying him 1) because far less intelligent and disciplined men use his ideas to justify their bad behavior and it’s helpful to understand the message they are garbling, and 2) he’s clearly pretty smart and knows a thing or too about the human experience, and he”s not afraid to say it (most of the time anyhow,you can see evidence of him holding back in his body language at certain points in the discussion…)
Interesting in that I’ve tried listening to one you tube talk he gave and found it incoherent. I tried listening to this interview and it was all over the place. Not Tim’s questions, but Jordan’s responses. Has to be the worst guest I’ve listened to. And to be honest, I don’t think there has been any other guests that I thought were terrible. Some I wasnt interested in, but this was just bad. FYI – I’m not a cultural warrior. Just found him impossible to listen to.
Although the interview was fine, as a woman and listener to this podcast (and a fan!) I’m left feeling uneasy. JP’s own words on his YouTube channel making jokes about gender… No thanks.
Been wondering why this guy has not been on. Well worth waiting for, and delivered as well as expected, and more. First one i watched right through on youtube. Well worth it, adds something to the experience
As someone else said; I’d heard so much about this guy and read some of his output, and I really liked this interview, but it was a tad underwhelming – JP that is. I appreciate you probably don’t want to lock horns with him but it felt a bit like the pre-match.
I also appreciate it’s a difficult one as you don’t want to end up dragged into the same old arguments so you don’t prod, but I think a little more prodding would have been good. I agree with some of his points and some I find so ungrounded I can’t even make out their shape. I generally support the concept of talking to these kind of guest (objectionable to large numbers of people) but it may be easier to justify if you poke a little more at their foundations. Otherwise your listeners spend a lot of time pointing at elephants.
Keep on Keepin on.
Thank you so much for finally having Dr. Peterson on your show. I’ve listened to this podcast twice already. His brilliant brain is absolutely beautiful, and your style of interviewing really let him shine. I greatly respect the way you ran this interview. You could’ve easily become defensive or combative. Instead you listened and allowed yourself to be open to a different opinion. I already was a die-hard fan of yours, but even more so now.
I knew that this interview would be controversial to some of your fan base, and
after reading through the comments here, I see I was correct. You lost “listeners” who didn’t listen to the episode and cancelled you for just being associated with someone who doesn’t toe the line. You had to have known that would happen. That was a badass move and I love you for it. Much respect for unapologetically following your curiosity. Keep going! I learn so much from you and look forward to all of the content that work so hard to create.
Hi Tim,
This podcast helped me. Thank you. I wrestle with temporal lobe epilepsy, which offers regular God experiences, and also rattles me deeply. When Peterson said “ontological shock” it put a word to the lifelong regular destabilizations the seizures have created. It’s something that I’ve never quite been able to define- thank you.
Also appreciate that you guys talked about who shouldn’t be doing psychedelics. Psychedelics are quickly becoming the pop panacea for all psychological woes, at least among my fellow artists. Nice to hear you acknowledge that they are not necessarily good for everyone.
Thanks, Tim. Excellent interview that provided a view of Peterson that may change minds as to how they view him.
Where can i find part two?
Dr Peterson is clearly very articulate and smart and I enjoyed the interview. However I think there are tons of better people out there to get life and self-help advice from compared to someone who is a controversial psychologist and is or was addicted to benzos but clearly made sure that the interviewer could not ask a question about this topic (having watched almost all of Tim’s shows I know that, if he could, he would have asked). Same goes for his thoughts on psilocybin: he pretends to be an expert but most likely never took the substance so all he knows is what he read, which anyone can do but does not make anyone an expert no matter how smart they are and how many degrees they have. There is much better advice out there for sure.
I love how Dr. Peterson spoke of the two great domins: chaos and order. There is a need to contend with chaos even though too much chaos overwhelms you. it is a world of unknown possibilities. On the other hand, when order is too extreme then it becomes totalitarian and there’s no room for innovation and other great things.