
“Everyone’s genius is right next to their dysfunction.” — Graham Duncan
Graham Duncan (@GrahamDuncanNYC) is the co-founder of East Rock Capital, a multi-family office investment firm that manages $2 billion for a small number of families and their charitable foundations.
Before starting East Rock 14 years ago, Graham worked at two other investment firms and started his career by co-founding an independent Wall Street research firm. Graham graduated from Yale with a B.A. in ethics, politics, and economics. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and serves as co-chair of the SOHN Conference Foundation, which funds pediatric cancer research.
Josh Waitzkin, the chess prodigy who served as the basis for the book and movie Searching for Bobby Fischer, calls Graham “the tip of the spear in the realms of talent tracking and judgment of human potential in high stakes mental arenas.”
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Overcast, or on your favorite podcast platform. You can find the transcript of this episode here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.
Would you like to hear another episode with an investor who understands the value of quality time? Check out my conversation with Peter Mallouk, in which we discuss illiquidity as a feature rather than a bug, when the risk of being out of the market is greater than the risk of being in, and much more. (Stream below or right-click here to download.):
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QUESTION(S) OF THE DAY: What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.
Scroll below for links and show notes…
SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE
- Connect with Graham Duncan:
Website | Twitter | East Rock Capital
- Yale University
- Overcoming Imposter Syndrome by Gill Corkindale, Harvard Business Review
- Mental Model: Feedback Loops, My Investing Life
- Goldman Sachs
- 6 Reasons Why Your Baby Might Be Admitted to the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU), UnityPoint Health
- Memento
- The Science of Success by David Dobbs, The Atlantic
- The Highly Sensitive Person: How to Thrive When the World Overwhelms You by Elaine N. Aron
- Looking Back: Creative Genius in Classical Music by Dean Keith Simonton, The British Psychological Society
- Tribe of Mentors: Short Life Advice from the Best in the World by Tim Ferriss
- The Further Reaches of Adult Development by Robert Kegan, The RSA
- The Work of Byron Katie
- A Mind at Home with Itself: How Asking Four Questions Can Free Your Mind, Open Your Heart, and Turn Your World Around by Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell
- Sweetgreen
- Tesla
- Portfolio Manager (PM), Investopedia
- Chief Investment Officer (CIO), Investopedia
- Citadel
- Why Investors Should Have Known Tesla’s SolarCity Acquisition Was a Bad Business Decision by Travis Hoium, The Motley Fool
- The Aspirational Investor: Taming the Markets to Achieve Your Life’s Goals by Ashvin Chhabra
- Renaissance Technologies
- The Quants Run Wall Street Now by Gregory Zuckerman and Bradley Hope, The Wall Street Journal
- Jim Simons, the Numbers King by D.T. Max, The New Yorker
- Institute for Advanced Study
- Tribal Leadership: Leveraging Natural Groups to Build a Thriving Organization by Dave Logan, John King, and Halee Fischer-Wright
- Chicago Bulls
- The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups by Daniel Coyle
- Pixar
- Navy SEALs
- The Tools: 5 Tools to Help You Find Courage, Creativity, and Willpower — and Inspire You to Live Life in Forward Motion by Phil Stutz and Barry Michels
- Hollywood Shadows by Dana Goodyear, The New Yorker
- The Wim Hof Method
- Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility by James Carse
- Breakfast at the Victory: The Mysticism of Ordinary Experience by James Carse
- The Play’s the Thing: A Nashville Theologian Considers the Genius of James P. Carse by David Dark, Chapter 16
- Jocko Podcast
- Y Combinator
- The Playing Field by Graham Duncan, Medium
- This is Water by David Foster Wallace
- Greg McKeown — How to Master Essentialism, The Tim Ferriss Show
- The Whole-Brain Child: 12 Revolutionary Strategies to Nurture Your Child’s Developing Mind by Daniel J. Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson
- River of Well-Being by Bill Bray
- Who Really Said “Learn the Rules Like a Pro so You Can Break Them Like an Artist?” Y Combinator
- The Big Short
- Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values by Robert M. Pirsig
- The Entropic Brain: A Theory of Conscious States Informed by Neuroimaging Research with Psychedelic Drugs by Robin L. Carhart-Harris, Robert Leech, Peter J. Hellyer, and Murray Shanahan, Frontiers in Human Neuroscience
- Marginal Revolution
- Discover Your Inner Economist: Use Incentives to Fall in Love, Survive Your Next Meeting, and Motivate Your Dentist by Tyler Cowen
- Managing Procrastination, Predicting the Future, and Finding Happiness — Tim Urban, The Tim Ferriss Show
- The Tail End by Tim Urban, Wait But Why
- The 90-Year Life Calendar
- 10% Happier by Dan Harris
- Waking Up by Sam Harris
- The Roots of Mindfulness: How a Group of Jews Turned a Buddhist Spiritual Practice into a Distinctly American Phenomenon — and a Multi-Billion-Dollar Industry by Michelle Goldberg, Tablet
- The Waking Up Course: A Lesson on Gratitude by Sam Harris, Waking Up
- Welcome to the Party by Jeff Warren, 10% Happier (For free access to a dozen of Jeff Warren’s guided meditations, including “Welcome to the Party,” visit the special link 10percenthappier.com/welcome to download the 10% Happier app and unlock the content.))
- “There Isn’t Time — so Brief Is Life — for Bickerings, Apologies, Heartburnings, Callings to Account. There Is Only Time for Loving — and but an Instant, so to Speak, for That.” by Mark Twain, Letter to Clara Spaulding, 20 August 1886
- The Sohn Conference Foundation
SHOW NOTES
- I think of Graham as far more than an investor. How does he describe what he does? [05:35]
- Absent the systems and frameworks he’s honed over time, what made Graham a good talent hunter at the tender age of 24? [10:12]
- What constitutes taste when Graham is scouting for talent these days? [13:05]
- Upon meeting someone, how does Graham stress-test whether or not someone is “commercial” in the way they balance aggression and integrity? [15:57]
- One high-signal question Graham has found particularly useful when trying to determine the quality of anyone from a trader to an OB/GYN. [19:12]
- When interviewing a potential candidate, how does Graham vet their given references? [22:00]
- On approaching the reference process with curiosity rather than an attempt to catch anyone with a “gotcha.” [25:32]
- Why does mutual friend Josh Waitzkin call Graham The Wild Gardener? [29:41]
- How does Graham deal with contradictory perspectives — when the data is telling him one thing and his gut is telling him another? [31:30]
- What does Graham do to familiarize himself with the way people underwrite their mental models (besides nearly beheading them)? [33:52]
- Graham talks about his role as an investment coach, of sorts, and how he picks the best “players” for the game at hand. [35:17]
- What other patterns has Graham noticed in the successful talent he’s ended up selecting? [36:47]
- In what way have others helped Graham surface his hidden assumptions, and how might a coach do the same for others? [41:34]
- An example of when Graham’s “grip” has been a bit too tight around his own beliefs. [44:38]
- What Byron Katie has taught us about articulating the opposite of such beliefs — and having a mindful lunch. [46:14]
- When evaluating a team, how does Graham think about each person developing the ability to look at the opposite versus hiring to end up at that optimal mixture? [50:45]
- How might someone train to more clearly see disconfirming evidence — and roll with the punches when their instincts lead them toward regrettable decisions? [54:04]
- What books does Graham gift to others most often? [58:56]
- An aside about Wim Hof and Josh Waitzkin embracing “the other side of pain” to get the most out of life. [1:02:31]
- How does James Carse’s distinction of finite and infinite games apply to finance, and how would Graham test a potential teammate for compatible sensibility? [1:06:12]
- How likely would it be for Graham to invest in a Jocko Willink project? [1:10:45]
- Different people have different ways of sniffing around direct questions. Here are a few examples. [1:11:43]
- Graham explains what this Kwame Appiah quote means to him: “In life the challenge is not so much to figure out how best to play the game; the challenge is to figure out what game you’re playing.” [1:13:42]
- Going by David Foster Wallace’s famous commencement speech, what’s your water? Podcasting helps me see mine. [1:16:17]
- Graham’s take on Greg McKeown’s Essentialism. [1:17:50]
- How Graham sees careers as a river (with a nod of thanks to neuroscientists Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson’s model of well-being). [1:18:57]
- Toward which bank do the top one percent in any given field swim? What if that field is financial markets? What if that field is writing fiction novels? [1:21:54]
- The differences between millionaires, billionaires, cultural billionaires, and time billionaires. [1:26:25]
- An idea for how Tim Urban might allow for personalization of his 90-year-life calendar. [1:28:55]
- Are you more concerned about the length of your life or its width? [1:30:10]
- Life changes Graham and I have both made as a direct result of reading Tim Urban’s “The Long Tail” piece at Wait But Why. [1:31:05]
- How does Graham try to appreciate the width of his life? [1:32:43]
- Aside from the aforementioned Kwame Appiah quote, what might Graham put on his billboard? [1:36:12]
- The power to be found in treating negative feelings like welcome party guests. [1:37:07]
- Parting thoughts from Mark Twain and Graham. [1:39:09]
PEOPLE MENTIONED
- Josh Waitzkin
- David Tepper
- Chris Fussell
- Stan McChrystal
- Tobias L¸tke
- Kyle Maynard
- Susan Cain
- Elaine Aron
- Dean Simonton
- Johann Sebastian Bach
- Warren Buffett
- William Shakespeare
- Wayne Gretzky
- John Arnold
- Richard Feynman
- Carolyn Coughlin
- Bob Kegan
- Byron Katie
- Charlie Munger
- Elon Musk
- Ashvin Chhabra
- Jim Simons
- Dave Logan
- Phil Jackson
- Daniel Coyle
- Phil Stutz
- Barry Michels
- Dana Goodyear
- Wim Hof
- Laird Hamilton
- James Carse
- Jocko Willink
- Paul Graham
- Sam Altman
- Ray Dalio
- Kwame Appiah
- David Foster Wallace
- Greg McKeown
- Dan Siegel
- Steve Jobs
- Pablo Picasso
- Mike Burry
- Christian Bale
- Robert M. Pirsig
- Rachel Cusk
- Karl Ove KnausgÂrd
- Robin Carhart-Harris
- Tyler Cowen
- Rupert Murdoch
- Tim Urban
- Matt Mullenweg
- Dan Harris
- Sam Harris
- Jack Kornfield
- Joseph Goldstein
- Sharon Salzberg
- Gretchen Rubin
- Muneeb Ali
- Pierre Chardin
- Mark Twain